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Meat eaters: What do you dispute about this argument? Do you dispute its validity or its soundness, and if it's soundness, which premise do you dispute?
Hey...
The basic premise is baloney, so to speak.
Meat is for consumption.
Ask any predator. Nature is replete with them in all shapes and sizes.
From a religious perspective (not mine) one could say:
"If God hadn't intended those herbivores to be eaten, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."
From a personal perspective:
One can choose to abstain from eating meat. Or not. I'm pro-choice on the matter.
The below argument for vegetarianism is very straightforward, yet I've never heard an actual rebuttal to it that held water:
I. One should avoid causing suffering that is reasonably avoidable.
II. Eating meat causes suffering.
III. Eating meat is reasonably avoidable.
Conclusion: One should not eat meat.
The argument is obviously valid, and premises II and III seem to me to be clearly sound. I'm really not sure where meat eaters disagree, but I'm guessing it must be premise I.
Meat eaters: What do you dispute about this argument? Do you dispute its validity or its soundness, and if it's soundness, which premise do you dispute?
Moderator cut: -
I dispute all of them.
1. "Reasonably avoidable" in very subjective. What is reasonable to you, is NOT reasonable to someone else.
2. Much of my family provides their OWN meat - they are farmers. There is no "suffering".
3. Eating meat might be "reasonably avoidable" for you, however, it is not for me.
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,161,809 times
Reputation: 8105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
You may not have intended to, but you do highlight one way in which my argument may not be valid. Let's imagine that eating meat actually caused the least amount of suffering out of all food options available to man. In that case, man should clearly eat meat and try to avoid other food options. In that scenario, all three premises would be true, but the conclusion would be false. That's obviously not good. This modified version should correct for that:
I. One should avoid causing suffering that is reasonably avoidable, so long as that avoidance doesn't cause greater suffering.
II. Eating meat causes suffering.
III. Eating meat is reasonably avoidable, and its avoidance does not cause greater suffering.
Conclusion: One should not eat meat.
I think that is better.
I have no problem with this, it's true that eating things without a central nervous system avoids much suffering. The only problem is that "avoiding suffering" is pretty low on most people's to-do list of motivations, unless one holds deeply spiritual, mystical, or Buddhist beliefs and practices them. That's obvious from reading history and from our own life experiences.
Young guys of all faiths, ideologies, or lack thereof, for one example, will actually risk death and permanent handicaps for a chance to join the armed forces and legally inflict great suffering or death on rivals, his tribe/nation's enemy. There are far more volunteers for the Army than for the Peace Corps.
Women are usually much more subtle in causing suffering, but it's still there in many of them.
Most people are motivated by seeking happiness or pleasure - for themselves, their family, their tribe, or the larger tribe of state and country. I'm also like that ...... one part of my brain has lofty ideals, but fails to convince the lower areas of my brain to participate in them ...... all that part wants to do is to mate with pretty females, or at this particular moment to eat a dead but juicy barbecued chicken leg.
A lot depends on one's worldview, and unfortunately yours is not a very common one in the history of the human species.
You're confusing my argument with a health argument. I'm not suggesting that the reason people should avoid meat is because it isn't as healthy. I pointed out the health benefits to show that we don't have health reason to eat meat, but my argument against meat is a moral argument.
There is no context in which intentionally killing a sentient creature for no good reason is acceptable.
..........." moral argument ".....
Many verses in the bible about slaughtering animals for feasts ( return of the prodigal son )
I am quite content with my morals that believes it is ok to eat meat.
Why is it unethical to kill a human but not unethical to kill a pig?
The difference between humans and pigs is a matter of degree, not of kind.
Actually, its not unethical to kill some humans. Your Religion may make it "Unethical" for you, but would not protect you from folks like me, if you where one of those people who needed killing. At times it improves the human race. One could probably gather up thousands who would improve mankind if killed.
And that is why in a civilized society we don't kill retards or blind people. Or stupid or mystical people for that matter. Being human MATTERS. Being human admits you to the Civilization Club, where rights are recognized by others in the club. A club which is only to open to rational animals. Men.
We don't? Ever heard of the Salem witch hunts? So-called rational men, indeed, killed people they thought were witches, insane, simple/retarded, mystics, clairvoyants, etc.---victims being mostly women, I may add. This practice is not limited to the Salem event in colonial Massachusetts. This is a universal male behavior in the human species. Men believing in God(s) is also insane, irrational, and simple. Should we burn them at the stake? Heck, it's been done before.... just saying. Men are far from rational, Marc. You just haven't awakened yet about animals suffering at the hands of men. You may never wake up--but the young people are waking. Hold on to your hat.
Also...so-called rational men kill other men that don't look like them or act like them (KKK and Nazis to name a few). So-called rational men kill for money and resources too (Iraq war sound familiar)?
Being human doesn't matter one iota (typing it in all-caps doesn't make it so).
Last edited by TotallyTam; 04-03-2015 at 02:53 PM..
Bottom line is that its great if folks eat less meat. Try to especially stay away fro Rib Eye steaks. That may bring the prices down a bit and we meat eaters can eat more meat cheaper. Love you guys. Have another carrot.
Bottom line is that its great if folks eat less meat. Try to especially stay away fro Rib Eye steaks. That may bring the prices down a bit and we meat eaters can eat more meat cheaper. Love you guys. Have another carrot.
The fact that you joke about the suffering of animals makes you an absolutely disgusting person.
This thread is staying closed - far, far too many posts that need to be deleted. A couple of things in case you had post deleted or received a DM from me - and also for quite a few who have posts that were posted beyond the post where I finally threw in the towel:
*Don't play moderator. If you think there is a problem with a post then report it, but do not comment on it in the thread or chastise your fellow posters. Chances are very high YOU are going to end up with an infraction for doing so. *This forum has guidelines, it is not everyone's thing. If you don't like the guidelines perhaps this isn't the right forum for you to be posting in. *Stay on topic. Ranting about something off topic then throwing a quick "But back to the topic..." with a word or two is still going to be deleted for being off topic. *Do NOT talk about your fellow posters, let alone insult them or attack them.
I have handed out more infractions for posts submitted in the last 24 hours in this thread than I have in entire weeks, and I just stopped moderating at a certain point. It always amazes me the topics that get this out of hand.
Sheesh.
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