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The reality is goods and services, generated by productive people (or businesses) - basically labor amplified by tools, machines, automation, whatever, to transform resources.
The illusion is money.
Under money madness, there are only three ways to acquire necessary money tokens : [1] trade, [2] charity, and [3] predation. When industries and businesses shed employees, that chokes off the trade in labor (jobs). That forces the needy to seek charity, private or public. That’s how “Socialism” was sold to the (m)asses - as a remedy. But compulsory charity and expropriation of property for the benefit of another is slavery, and slavery is not a viable remedy for the ills of humanity.
The real power to create the medium of exchange lies in the sovereign people. An example of a medium of exchange is the humble coupon denominated in goods or services. A coupon is a private promissory note (with fine print stating cash value 1/20 of a cent!). When tendered to the issuing party, the note is EXTINGUISHED upon receipt of the promised good or service. THAT is the kind of medium of exchange that tracks with the marketplace of goods and services. The more labor and production - the more notes are issued. A producer issues his promises / notes / coupons to trade for other people’s goods and services, with the intention of redeeming those promises at a future date. This is ORGANIC MONEY - based on fundamental law - the birthright to absolute own and to trade that which one owns.
Reconsider the plight of the unemployed factory worker. Unable to find a new job, he is faced with only two choices : petition for public charity (socialism) or engage in predation. But what if that unemployed factory worker could issue private promissory notes, denominated in his labor, and trade them for his necessities and pay his bills? He would not need to beg for charity nor engage in predation. And as long as he faithfully redeemed his notes with his labor upon tender, he could continue to be productive, trade and enjoy the benefit of his production.
The same process can be used by entrepreneurs and businessmen to finance their operations - and pay for labor, materials, etc. They issue private notes, denominated in what the business produces, and upon tender, redeem them. Such a system is in harmony with equitable trade and builds prosperity. Consider that a business “adds value” by processing materials via labor, and thus should have created something that has a value in excess of the raw materials (doing more with less) - or the business is counter to prosperity (doing less with more). Obviously, any business that is counterproductive soon finds that its notes cease to be acceptable and would close.
Both scenarios are based on established trust in the issuing party, hence labor notes and small business startups will be limited to those well known within a community. Those who have no “credit” (reputation) would be limited to trading with the national medium of exchange (and suffer the overhead expenses, limitations, etc). But for those individuals and companies that already have a reputation widely known, they can issue their notes outside of their small communities, and thus foster prosperity on a wider scale.
When businesses and corporations do not need to beg for credit, at usury, but can finance their operations with coupons, imagine how much greater prosperity can be. Businesses will not need to fight for market share (and scarce money). They will have a ready pool of customers (holders of existing coupons). They don’t have to pay for advertising to hire new workers (just trade for existing labor notes). Unemployed workers do not have to waste time searching for new employers - any holder of their note(s) is their next employer. And above all, stands the importance of a good reputation. For if one loses his reputation, his “creditworthiness” is lost. Like a gambler who welches on his marker and is thus barred from gambling, any worker or business who does not satisfactorily redeems his note with the highest possible quality will suffer dire consequences. Virtue will be its own reward. And those who peddled garbage or pretended to work would be shunned and barred from further participation in the organic money economy.
Under the sanity of prosperity, losing a job to automation does not spell disaster, but opportunity. It adds more available labor to the marketplace (via coupons). If you had a wallet full of other people’s labor notes, what would you do? Have them clean your garage? Work in the garden? Help in your business? Do household repairs? Wouldn’t you be more prosperous enjoying their fruits of their labor? And they, in turn, would be completing the equitable trade that began when they tendered that note to someone else.
A farmer with a bumper crop is not forced to accept less money per unit - because of a glut - and the scarcity of money. He can equitably trade it via notes. And customers can trade for it, using their notes. Instead of selling at wholesale and buying at retail (and all the implied parasitical loads), people can have equitable trade. More production, less waste. More enjoyment. Happiness !
A corporation, such as a car company, could pay dividends in the form of coupons denominated in automobiles (or portions thereof) or related services. The stockholder could trade that coupon to others, and eventually, the company redeems that coupon as denominated. The supply of coupons and their redemption is not limited by the money token supply, but the capability of the corporation to manufacture said vehicles. And to insure the highest demand, the companies would impose quality control of the highest standard. For no one wants a bad reputation - EVER.
The key point is that only PRODUCERS (laborers and companies) should have power to create the medium of exchange used to trade for that which they produce. Never let parasites like government nor usurers (bankers) claim that power. For if they do, they will incrementally kill off their host, by endless skimming.
In the future filled with prosperity, the most prosperous people will be the most productive people whose goods and services are valued the most - not a subset of predators who acquired money tokens by any means, fair or foul. The most prosperous industries will be those who generate the highest quality at the lowest cost for the most people to enjoy - not those who can “make the most money” selling overpriced underperforming crap.
That's because all their people who were worth a dang moved to America to start businesses and build better lives. The stupid ones who don't know any better were left behind to pay 50% of their income to the tax man so that they can all be equally lame and "happy".
Debating is easy when you make up facts as you go along. You have data to back this up?
I see that you missed the point. <long explanation of "coupon" idea>I think that is a sane future, don’t you agree?
I did miss your point and I now acknowledge that you do have one. You have come up with an alternate currency of sorts and I do see how it could work, but I am not sure it would. The hard part would be getting that started; when the first unemployed worker is at the checkout buying food and offers his coupons. They are IOUs - credit. Our society has moved on from an informal IOU system to formal credit accounts. I personally think buying today's groceries with tomorrow's labor is not a sound financial plan. If no one cashes in your coupon tomorrow then you will have to go deeper in debt. And you are still ignoring the very real problem that we don't need all available labor. If you have a farm and you need the labor of 20 to produce enough food to feed 30, you can't have all 30 pay with labor.
One of Utopia definitions is something that will never come true. It's a dream, that being based on unfortunate fact that humans will never achieve that level of self consciousness.
As you see, it does not matter what social or political system you are in. Or, humanity is in. What really matters is what do humans do while in that system. Thus, any even the most advanced and humanitarian and beneficial intended system will be screwed up by those who get to power or milking fields.
There was nothing wrong with the socialist idea. What it was turned into was a different story.
And so goes the human history. Some on the top, most at the bottom, and some in the middle, as buffer between the 2. Voluntarily taken upon themselves.
Ahhhh........the dreaded "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" philosophy. In my experience, this type of person, somewhere along the way, has had some kind of good fortune that, coupled with hard work and perseverance, has enabled them to become successful.
Of course because the bootstrap philosophy worked for me. By the way, I didn't have some kind of good fortune other than to have enough sense not to listen to the neigh sayers like you. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but the truth is, if I had listened to the neigh sayers who was telling me I was wasting my time, I'd still be poor.
The reason for "(as described)" is that utopia means different things to different people. For the purposes of this discussion, I am talking about the utopia where technology is utilized to automate as much as possible. It's been a sci-fi ideal for decades if not more. An ear of corn might be planted, nurtured and harvested by machines, processed and served by machines and the cob processed and recycled by machines. The only time a human might touch it would be to eat it. Buildings would be mostly constructed by machines. All public transport (and possibly all non recreational transport, period) would be driverless. Medical diagnostics and most procedures would be automated.
There are jobs for people in this kind of society, but not nearly as many and most would be in the sector of designing, building and maintaining machines. Doctors and scientists would perform research and exploration. I am ignoring AI and assuming we continue to do our own thinking for the most part.
This all sounds wonderful until you map out how we get there from where we (I am in the US and using a US perspective) are now. The money to pay for all this belongs to a small subset of the population and our current model uses profit to incent them to fund ventures. I see no way to make this profitable. We would be eliminating the vast majority of low paying jobs and with no jobs, they could not be paying customers for the automated food outlets and transport facilities. They would have no money for rent.
The simplest solution is socialism. Basic services - food, clothing, education, transportation, rent and health care - would be provided to everyone. The only way to make that work is to place a tremendous tax burden on the wealthy. Oversimplifying a bit, the government would have to buy a lot of the automated equipment from the manufacturer and then turn around and take most of the profit back from them so they could afford it. Where else could they possibly get it? Most is not all BTW; the rich still get richer in a socialist society. They just can't amass the majority of the wealth.
So, the debate...
I don't think there is a way to achieve this kind of utopian society without socialism. I would like to hear someone argue differently.
Both are imaginary terms, meaning both are but philosophies. In reality Utopia would soon lead to Dystopia due to human nature. Those at the top who have will always want more and that means taking from those underfoot. Imagine parents eating well while depriving their children of what little nutrition the state allots the entire family. What becomes of the neglected children? Are they taken in by some institution which raises them to be agents of the state? Will the state allow people to procreate? Will sex be outlawed?
Sure, it all sounds wonderful though you haven't mapped out how to get there from present society. It won't be a singular country/continental way of life - it will be a one world totalitarian government. The first moves are taking away all rights, liberties and freedoms so there is no individualism leaving a collective.
All of humanity will be as an ant/bee colony working mindlessly for the collective hive while the fat queen is waited on hand and foot.
What you envision is a purely progressive world. Progressives seek control and their end game is total control. Total control means pain for those without it. The way to do so is by eliminating one's humanity - complete oppression - while leaving the human intact. Basically, zombies enslaved to servitude for life.
This means surveillance 24/7/365. There will be no privacy as privacy can lead to conspiracy to revolt against the overlords. It is easier to control people when they have no private hopes, dreams or little else to live for. An important thing to consider in your vision of utopia is the powers that be can exterminate those they find a burden at any time, day or night, with no explanation owed to any. They can also eliminate any activities which may bring joy or pleasure to one's dreary life. Intimacy can be ruled out if the overlords deem it unproductive. It could become a criminal act.
Watch Star Wars for a glimpse of Utopia=The Empire.
This topic goes from being a debate to becoming a philosophical tome.
I did miss your point and I now acknowledge that you do have one. You have come up with an
[1] alternate currency of sorts and I do see how it could work, but I am not sure it would.
[2] The hard part would be getting that started;
[3] when the first unemployed worker is at the checkout buying food and offers his coupons.
[4] They are IOUs - credit.
Our society has moved on from an informal IOU system to formal credit accounts. I personally think buying today's groceries with tomorrow's labor is not a sound financial plan. If no one cashes in your coupon tomorrow then
[5] you will have to go deeper in debt. And you are still ignoring the very real problem that
[6] we don't need all available labor. If you have a farm and you need the labor of 20 to produce enough food to feed 30, you can't have all 30 pay with labor.
[6] Under current money madness, it appears we do not have a need or a means to use all available labor. THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT.
>>> People are enslaved by ignorance of the money, who controls it, and how it is a scam.
Prosperity is being throttled by the scarcity of money (and credit).
[5] If you had a wallet filled with IOUs worth 120 hours of labor, what would you do with it?
.. Have the laborers do whatever you need doing!
.. When has there ever been a time when laborers would NOT be needed?
[4] Going deeper into obligation is not the same as being deeper into debt under USURY / debt credit.
.. If your notes are not redeemed, because your work is unsatisfactory, that 'rep' will kill off your ability to emit new notes. Otherwise, it's not your problem - you bought what you wanted with those promises. As long as you can redeem those notes, keep emitting them. The more you want, the more you promise to work. Simple.
[3, 2] No doubt, a community is going to have to come to a consensus to try it. See ITHACA HOURS.
[1] "Currency" is part of the illusion that usurers and money masters have foisted on the gullible for millennia.
There is no correlation between the finite sum of scarce money tokens (whether precious metal coin or notes or certificates) and the marketplace of goods and services.
We've been trained to fixate on the abstraction - money - (make money!) instead of reality - goods and services (let's be more productive!).
Once producers can make the medium of exchange needed to buy whatever they have, that means EVERYONE and EVERYTHING produced is able to be purchased / traded for / acquired, regardless of the sum of money tokens / currency / etc in circulation.
I look to Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway as the models of the kind of socialism I am referring to. They are doing fairly well and rank among the happiest countries according to UN surveys.
I have pondered such a thing as well , and have come to the conclusion that this wouldn't work at our current stage of development. Currently , humans are at the same level of toddlers in a sandbox , there are enough toys to go around , but there are the omnipresent few who want to control as many , if not all , of said toys for themselves. Given recent events , I've toyed (pardon the pun) around with curing the disease by killing the patient , however , this would be the easy way , and I am not keen on taking the path with least resistance. Maybe in a few hundred years , after generational recycling has occurred enough times for current mindsets to dissolve , will something like this occur , but not now.
The means to your end result entails genocide at several levels as those who wish to exert this form of control over others will meet resistance. Is this the point when you kill the patient to cure the disease?
Your last sentence will come soon enough when Common Core brainwashing/reprogramming is the only education humans know.
You are correct in that additional automation isn't required. You can make a pretty good case for social democracy based on the current state of affairs. A lot of people are upset about the upcoming reduction in the US Army because there isn't much else for those soldiers to do.
I don't have a problem with more effort or clever innovation being rewarded with a bigger share. But not 100 times bigger.
535 people in this USA live in democracy...435 representatives and 100 senators. They are elected by their constituents of the republic to legislate or make law for us. Supposedly, they are to represent our best interest.
The dilemma of soldiers with nothing to do an be traced back to illegals invading our borders and taking all of the unskilled jobs soldiers could fill.
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though you haven't mapped out how to get there from present society. It won't be a singular country/continental way of life - it will be a one world totalitarian government. The first moves are taking away all rights, liberties and freedoms so there is no individualism leaving a collective.
