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My lady, who I love more than life, was attacked , and she defended herself, permanently maiming and crippling her attacker. She worked nights at that time, and was coming home early, so it was late night, in a huge parking lot. He tried to blitz her, knocked her down, Thought he was in total control at that point, from her telling of it. She had a little distance and some precious seconds to think. When he went to grab her she had managed to get to her knees, and it would seem, by the outcome, he didn't try and gain control over her hands. It was his undoing.
This has been some time ago. She's hardly "over it" either. WE are not over it. It will be a lifelong ordeal for both of us. The attack itself was brutal and bloody. The investigation process actually was about as gentle as it could have been, the are good cops out there, it just forced her to relive and relate it , seemingly, hundreds of times. Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it" . She was a target of opportunity. She's quite smallish, just over a hundred pounds and 5'2" , in her work shoes. She was 51 at the time. Again, not the cliche' situation , to use your description, and all about power and control, as you also said.
The vermin that attacked her was a prior offender, as well. A true predator, and to say that she was, IS, traumatized is an understatement. Being attacked by a mountain lion wouldn't have been more traumatizing. I won't detail how she defended herself, other than to say the creep , should he ever make it out of prison, won't ever do this again, to any woman. Still, she has nightmares, anxiety that's off the scale, I have to be very very careful how I approach her (I NEVER come up behind her if she doesn't know I'm there) we've been, and still go , to counseling/therapy, singly and together and she went through a meltdown stage of totally uncharacteristic behavior. If anyone were ever to say she had this coming, for any reason, I might end up behind bars myself, because they would be getting a mud hole stomped in them.
So, this is an issue I have ...very strong...feelings about. Thus , a rapist, ANY rapist, for ANY reason or motive, will receive nothing but hatred and disgust from me. The ALL try and say their victims invited the attack, in some way. A couple now ex "friends of mine "advised that I should leave her, because of the state this has left her in. We were apart for just a few days when she had her breakdown, and it almost put me into meltdown. I could never, never will, leave her alone again. She was in the hospital, otherwise I would not have gone anywhere. How anyone could justify doing this to a woman, any woman , let alone my tiny Elf princess, the thought sickens me. As I said before, it doesn't matter how a woman is dressed or behaving or anything else, NOTHING justifies rape. She is still some bodies daughter, sister, perhaps even wife or sweetheart, so the trauma pays forward. For life. Any man , anyone, who tries to place even a whiff of blame on their victim for a rape cannot be considered a human being. I don't care how big a drunken "tease" she is being, that doesn't deserve a life sentence of Latin , regret and mental anguish. For the victim and all who care for her.
Thanks for sharing your story and insights Ruth.
Thank you for sharing this painful story. Thank you for being an amazing partner.
I promise...it will get better. I worked with many rape victims, male and female, while in college. Their message was terrible but I met many at different stages of healing. They had hope and were true survivors.
I've read each of your posts, and I know where you're coming from.
I'm not going to dignify the above question with an answer. You know the answer.
How about you dignify the question by answering it for me, since your response that generated this 'why' was in response to my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veezybell
TWIS, seriously? Rape is wrong in ANY scenario, that's already been stated. But are we really gonna pretend granny in the apartment is the same as "Delicious" in the club drunk, high, and twerking on random dudes wearing a skirt with the bottom of her ass hanging out and a G-string?
I should ask you the same thing? veezy, seriously? Let me put this to you the absolute simplest way possible:
IT DOES NOT MATTER IF SHE IS WALKING DOWN THE STREET STARK NAKED, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DO A THING TO HER.
Quote:
I think rapists are like any other type of people that suffer from an addictive behavior, in the sense that they're gonna do it regardless....
EXACTLY.
Quote:
... but they definitely have triggers to set them off.
That is not the fault of a single female out there.
Quote:
...A knockout could come sit in my lap and get me worked up, and I might have a few inappropriate thoughts, but rape wouldn't EVER cross my mind. Later on, she goes and sits on the serial rapist in the corner and that's all that was needed to set him off for the night.
Do you hear yourself? Without you realizing it, you've made my point for me. You wouldn't do it because........why? Why wouldn't you do that? Answer why you would not do that. There's a reason you would not do that.
So when someone does, when someone goes ahead and does what you will not do, due to the very big fat reason that you would not do it, that is NOT the female's fault.
YOU are in control of what you do. This is the same mindset that some people have for telling some women that they have to cover up from head to toe in a thick, black blanket. I completely reject the idea that it's the female's fault that some men can't control themselves, therefore, women should walk around in burkas...and guess what, they still get raped as well.
The person who is 100% solely responsible for any crime is the person who committed the crime. It has nothing to do with what the victim wore, how old the victim was, where they were, it is, always, every. single. time. the fault of the person who committed the crime. There is no, "Well, what about this scenario..." it is always the fault of the person who committed the crime.
The point in my analogy was that while they may intend to go to North Korea, they may not intend to be abducted and detained.
Your analogy makes no sense because North Korea is a brutal dictatorship that will detain anyone they feel like. There is no one with the capability to get to North Korea who doesn't know this could happen.
The analogy would make sense if you said the entire world (our environment) was like North Korea (possible rape), and if that was the case then no one should leave home ever.
So no, your analogy has no point and makes no sense.
How about you dignify the question by answering it for me, since your response that generated this 'why' was in response to my post.
...
Your posts are usually quite intelligent. I think you could figure this one out yourself. But, if you insist:
The statement in question was mine, which said, "Come on now. A little old granny sitting in her apartment alone is a little different than a woman getting drunk at a pickup bar."
A pickup bar.
Pickup bar.
Pickup.
Pickup to play scrabble?
Pickup to discuss the Import Export Bank?
Pickup to discuss recipes on Pinterest?
I suggest you go to Urban Dictionary and look up "pickup bar".
Or even "Oxford Dictionaries": "A bar frequented by people seeking potential sexual partners."
Note, I'm not saying any of this is right or good or the way people should behave. I'm not saying it excuses anyone's behavior. I'm just being practical.
So, where are the safe zones where a woman and man are both safe from rape and won't be blamed if it happens?
What are the times they are allowed out? How can women or a man go on any dates with anyone? How can people drink any type of alcohol or accept a regular drink from anyone? What if your job or education requires night hours/classes?
Is this what we are reduced to? Do we really need to fear rape around every corner at any time of the day or night?
I'm sure not going to live my life that way. I will go about my business being reasonably careful. Will I be vulnerable sometimes, sure. We are all vulnerable, and if you think you aren't you are fooling yourself.
I think the message should change into: try to be less vulnerable, but if you are assaulted it's not your fault. (With no buts) also teaching everyone that it's not okay to assault someone even if they are vulnerable. How about teaching taking care of vulnerable people?
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,768,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeo123
So a question for thought.
If a US citizen walks into North Korea and is abducted, where do opinions fall? It's a similar situation of "shouldn't have done that, you have your own actions to blame."
North Korea is obviously wrong in this scenario for abducting someone.
The citizen should have clearly known better given the high risk situation.
Are the people telling the citizen he shouldn't have gone to North Korea guilty of victim blaming as well, or are they just pointing out "common sense" that would have "prevented this"?
At the end of the day, both the NK government in my scenario and the rapist are responsible for the crime and they both have control over their actions, but does the US citizen's disregard put partial blame on him, or should his actions be irrelevant because the crime was committed by someone else?
I point this out because certain topics tend to become emotional and move away from the logic. Rape being a key example.
When you phrase the similar situations slightly differently, it's surprising what you have to consider.
That said: Mod Note: While statistics are fine and yes, men are currently more likely to commit rape, be aware that gender bashing is not permitted and if this turns into a "men are evil rapists" thread, it will be closed. So far that hasn't happened, and I hope it remains that way.
I see exactly what you are saying here.
To mention an earlier point, we tell our kids don't rape, don't rob, don't cheat, don't hit. Yet, plenty of people still rape, rob, cheat, and hit. The person who does the crime is the only one responsible for the crime and the only one who should be punished. But we know perfectly well that these evil people are out there. That is why I cannot get why it is so wrong and controversial to give women street smarts to protect themselves in many situations IN ADDITION to being vigilant about punishing rape when it is PROVEN by DUE PROCESS of the law and telling guys not rape.
I don't think blame is the correct word to use in these situations, because obviously the blame is on the person who commits the rape. But there something to be said about probability, which is no respecter of responsibility in situations. Being in a bad poor-lit neighborhood after midnight in Washington DC gives you a heightened probability of being a victim of a robbery or mugging. That is why people suggest being aware of your surroundings and not going to that area, to decrease your probability of being a victim. Drinking a drink that someone offers you that you did not see get made puts you at a higher probability of losing your senses, therefore less able to fight off a rape attempt. Not drinking something you aren't sure about keeps the probability in your favor of not being a rape victim.
You can say you were in the right all day. But I'm sure people would rather not be a victim in the first place. That is why I implore anyone to use street smarts, no matter how innocent your fun is and if anything seems arye to you, listen to yourself.
Oh, BTW, I and my male friends ALWAYS watch out for our female friends when we go out, especially when alcohol is involved. Because we know evil people are out and we view it as our responsibility to make sure our female friends get home that night as much as it is our responsibility to make sure our male friends get home.
If a US citizen walks into North Korea and is abducted, where do opinions fall? It's a similar situation of "shouldn't have done that, you have your own actions to blame."
North Korea is obviously wrong in this scenario for abducting someone.
The citizen should have clearly known better given the high risk situation.
Are the people telling the citizen he shouldn't have gone to North Korea guilty of victim blaming as well, or are they just pointing out "common sense" that would have "prevented this"?
At the end of the day, both the NK government in my scenario and the rapist are responsible for the crime and they both have control over their actions, but does the US citizen's disregard put partial blame on him, or should his actions be irrelevant because the crime was committed by someone else?
I point this out because certain topics tend to become emotional and move away from the logic. Rape being a key example.
When you phrase the similar situations slightly differently, it's surprising what you have to consider.
This is a great analogy, and the same point I was trying to make with the person who leaves a laptop sitting in open view in his parked car. The rapist, just like the thief or kidnapper, is always wrong and 100% responsible for his actions. But the victims have some responsibility for putting themselves in a high-risk situation.
My lady, who I love more than life, was attacked , and she defended herself, permanently maiming and crippling her attacker. She worked nights at that time, and was coming home early, so it was late night, in a huge parking lot. He tried to blitz her, knocked her down, Thought he was in total control at that point, from her telling of it. She had a little distance and some precious seconds to think. When he went to grab her she had managed to get to her knees, and it would seem, by the outcome, he didn't try and gain control over her hands. It was his undoing.
This has been some time ago. She's hardly "over it" either. WE are not over it. It will be a lifelong ordeal for both of us. The attack itself was brutal and bloody. The investigation process actually was about as gentle as it could have been, the are good cops out there, it just forced her to relive and relate it , seemingly, hundreds of times. Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it" . She was a target of opportunity. She's quite smallish, just over a hundred pounds and 5'2" , in her work shoes. She was 51 at the time. Again, not the cliche' situation , to use your description, and all about power and control, as you also said.
The vermin that attacked her was a prior offender, as well. A true predator, and to say that she was, IS, traumatized is an understatement. Being attacked by a mountain lion wouldn't have been more traumatizing. I won't detail how she defended herself, other than to say the creep , should he ever make it out of prison, won't ever do this again, to any woman. Still, she has nightmares, anxiety that's off the scale, I have to be very very careful how I approach her (I NEVER come up behind her if she doesn't know I'm there) we've been, and still go , to counseling/therapy, singly and together and she went through a meltdown stage of totally uncharacteristic behavior. If anyone were ever to say she had this coming, for any reason, I might end up behind bars myself, because they would be getting a mud hole stomped in them.
I can't imagine anyone on this thread(or elsewhere) suggesting that your lady "had this coming". She was attacked walking to her car. But hidden in your story is a very telling statement:
"Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it".
So, what if she had been doing such a thing? Might you view her responsibility differently? Might you've possibly thought she shouldn't have been doing that? Your statement certainly suggests you would. And that would get you accused of "victim blaming".
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber
So, this is an issue I have ...very strong...feelings about. Thus , a rapist, ANY rapist, for ANY reason or motive, will receive nothing but hatred and disgust from me. The ALL try and say their victims invited the attack, in some way. A couple now ex "friends of mine "advised that I should leave her, because of the state this has left her in. We were apart for just a few days when she had her breakdown, and it almost put me into meltdown. I could never, never will, leave her alone again. She was in the hospital, otherwise I would not have gone anywhere. How anyone could justify doing this to a woman, any woman , let alone my tiny Elf princess, the thought sickens me. As I said before, it doesn't matter how a woman is dressed or behaving or anything else, NOTHING justifies rape. She is still some bodies daughter, sister, perhaps even wife or sweetheart, so the trauma pays forward. For life. Any man , anyone, who tries to place even a whiff of blame on their victim for a rape cannot be considered a human being. I don't care how big a drunken "tease" she is being, that doesn't deserve a life sentence of pain , regret and mental anguish. For the victim and all who care for her.
As has been said seemingly 15 times on this thread, no one is claiming that rape is ever justified. Nor is anyone claiming that ALL rape victims share some responsibility for what happened to them. But it's equally absurd to say that all so-called rape victims are totally blameless. Let's use your example of the woman dancing naked on the bar. If this same woman follows a man to his hotel room and gets naked, is she just as innocent as your lady?
I can't imagine anyone on this thread(or elsewhere) suggesting that your lady "had this coming". She was attacked walking to her car. But hidden in your story is a very telling statement:
"Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it".
So, what if she had been doing such a thing? Might you view her responsibility differently? Might you've possibly thought she shouldn't have been doing that? Your statement certainly suggests you would. And that would get you accused of "victim blaming".As has been said seemingly 15 times on this thread, no one is claiming that rape is ever justified. Nor is anyone claiming that ALL rape victims share some responsibility for what happened to them. But it's equally absurd to say that all so-called rape victims are totally blameless. Let's use your example of the woman dancing naked on the bar. If this same woman follows a man to his hotel room and gets naked, is she just as innocent as your lady?
Some might blame her for walking at night alone. Which is totally crazy.
I get where many of you are coming from. You think, well it won't happen to someone I know or love because they will be more careful. People should be careful, but to deny that everyone is vulnerable in their everyday lives is ridiculous. These are all times people have been raped in real life.
Today I challenge you to see the times you are vulnerable to attack...
-walking to my car this morning on the way work
-parking in a garage or parking lot
-taking a coffee from a coworker who I thought was being nice
-having lunch with a previous boyfriend or just a male friend and going together in one car
-going to the bathroom by yourself
-having a late night meeting with a client and then walking to your car
- meeting a date, coworker, or friend for a drink
- going to a bar and having a drink
- going to a work party or a regular party with friends
- taking a taxi home
- etc...etc....
All of those things make you vulnerable, and life is inherently vulnerable. By saying "well if she/he was smarter they wouldn't have been raped" is an argument rapists and pedophiles use to justify their actions.by bringing it up over and over, someone is reading this right now and thinking...yeah they were asking for it. That is seriously messed up. Some rape victim is reading that and he or she is like, well I don't want them to think I wanted it or it was my fault so I just won't say anything.
If you think the simple fact of living your life is reason to be blamed for rape you might say things like...
Well, she was drunk...
Well, we are married...
She was out all alone...
Her skirt was so short, she must have wanted it...
I will teach my wife/daughter/granddaughter not to do those things....(you can't teach someone to not get raped)
She went to a party...
She went to a bar...
Women are so fearful of being raped or making one little mistake and then getting blamed. And many rape victims are blamed by their friends and loved ones.
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