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Try to make wise choices and be less vulnerable, but if you are raped it's not your fault.
How hard is that?
I will make the choice to drive my car on a highway today just like millions of people. Chances are I will get in an accident that I have zero control over. By just living my life, I am putting myself at risk.
When I get home and tell my spouse, will he say..."you should have not driven on that highway.its too risky. You should have been more careful. I can't believe you did that. If you had only been smarter, this would have never happened."
Or will he say, "I am so happy you are alive. That must have been terrible. I'm so sorry."
See the difference?
Rapists pick victims that are vulnerable and they control the situation. They rape because they are rapists. It's not like a normal person just rapes. The majority of men will never rape another person. The rapist will do it again and again. The rapist manipulates everyday situations and you can't predict when or where it will happen. They often gain their victims trust and love, because they want to rape. Rapists and pedophiles are all about control and manipulation.
I can't imagine anyone on this thread(or elsewhere) suggesting that your lady "had this coming". She was attacked walking to her car. But hidden in your story is a very telling statement:
"Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it".
So, what if she had been doing such a thing? Might you view her responsibility differently? Might you've possibly thought she shouldn't have been doing that? Your statement certainly suggests you would. And that would get you accused of "victim blaming".As has been said seemingly 15 times on this thread, no one is claiming that rape is ever justified. Nor is anyone claiming that ALL rape victims share some responsibility for what happened to them. But it's equally absurd to say that all so-called rape victims are totally blameless. Let's use your example of the woman dancing naked on the bar. If this same woman follows a man to his hotel room and gets naked, is she just as innocent as your lady?
Yes.
Being on a date, wearing a sexy outfit, having a drink, getting drunk, going to a party, being a prostitute, being a stripper, and getting naked....
Because you automatically put yourself into Superior Moral Mode when you do it.
As far as rape is concerned, a woman should be able to get hammered drunk, pass out in public stark naked, and still not be raped.
Just like your average guy could.
But women are expected to look after not only their Own Moral Code, also the Mens around them (see: do not pass out naked in public, wear short skirts, etc).
The only problem with this is that in practice, if a woman and a man both get equally hammered drunk, have sex, and regret it the next day it is typically construed as the woman was raped rather than them raping each other.
I can't imagine anyone on this thread(or elsewhere) suggesting that your lady "had this coming". She was attacked walking to her car. But hidden in your story is a very telling statement:
"Its not like she was dancing naked on the bar, or "asking for it".
So, what if she had been doing such a thing? Might you view her responsibility differently? Might you've possibly thought she shouldn't have been doing that? Your statement certainly suggests you would. And that would get you accused of "victim blaming".As has been said seemingly 15 times on this thread, no one is claiming that rape is ever justified. Nor is anyone claiming that ALL rape victims share some responsibility for what happened to them. But it's equally absurd to say that all so-called rape victims are totally blameless. Let's use your example of the woman dancing naked on the bar. If this same woman follows a man to his hotel room and gets naked, is she just as innocent as your lady?
Its not a matter of innocence , and the "dancing naked on the bar" quote was intended as a swipe at an overused situational example.. I think you just read to much into it, but I will say, that's good ....analytical ....thinking. A d no, I do not view that situation any differently, in terms of responsibility. I had actually addressed that in another post. My disdain for the school of thought that places responsibility on a rape victim , regardless of events leading up to the rape, ....I thought I had made clear. Its why "asking for it" is in quotes, to show those are not my words. Hope that clears things up.
As to the situation you describe, following g a man to his room and "getting naked", ....that's getting into having to divine intent, which I don't like doing. Its the same thing with using how a woman is dressed and acting in a bar. The dancing topless or whatever. These sitjatio s are usually fueled by alcohol and/or drugs, which any guy with half a brain can see , does not , at all, mean she's saying "throw me down and take me". I stand by my guns, and still say, there is NO "justification for rape, and taking advantage of an intoxicated person is skating right on the edge of things. Someone demonstrating such a lack of inhibition, as we are discussing here, should be a red flag, and may as well have a flashing sign that says "hands off". If , for no other reason, just to be a gentleman. The latter term, and the code of conduct it implies, being something I , personally, take seriously.
The creep who attacked my lady was a true predator. He was actively hunting a target of opportunity. His motives were far different fro., say, the guy in the bar with the intoxicated girl. The latter is probably motivated by sex, and sees an easy mark for a one night stand. My lady's attacker was motivated by something else, entirely. Both are still rape, though. Unfortunately, the intoxicated girl in the bar who gets taken advantage of is going to have a much harder time getting justice than a woman attacked walking to her car after work. The girl in the bar is not going to get the empathy. She would from me, but, again, unfortunately, my feelings on the matter are in a minority.
Offhand, I would say most people would say, she "had it coming" . I don't see things that way, and I've elaborated as to why, but that doesn't do a girl who's been violated any good, nor does it effect the stigma people put on her situation any. When someone gets into such a state of intoxication as to have inhibition drop to the levels we are discussing, thats where someone needs to be looking out for them. There's also the whole "date rape" business where some creep spiked her drink with X or something.
At any rate, my feelings on such matters can only make a difference if I'm in a position to help. Be that person watching out. But I'm not a Guardian Angel with the power to divine where I need to be and who to protect. There are a couple girls in my lady's support group that have been through what we are talking about. Theirs are sad stories. What these poor girls have been through, just thinking about it makes my head hurt. I have my lady to take care of, and she's priority one. My feelings about rape stem , heavily from what happened to her. Some might say that compromises my objectivity. Maybe. But I don't care. I've been through and seen to much, going through this with her, to care about objectivity. I could not serve as a juror on a rape trial. The coil of rope on my shoulder as I take my seat in the box might give my feelings away.
The problem I have with the "don't blame the victim" message is that it has morphed from "if you are raped, it's not your fault, no matter what" to "girls have the right to act however they want, dress however they want, and do whatever they want, and if they get raped, it doesn't matter because it wasn't their fault". The first message is fine, yes, if you are raped, it's not your fault. Absolutely. But to use that message as an excuse to teach irresponsible behavior to young girls which can lead to them putting themselves in danger so that you can express your political point is just gross.
I will teach my daughter to always take steps to try to protect herself, in the way she dresses and behaves, and who she hangs out with. If she STILL gets raped, which she could, it's not her fault.
I will teach my son to always get verbal consent before any increase in intimacy, and to stop without that consent. And that if he is STILL falsely accused of rape, it's not his fault either.
This is a great analogy, and the same point I was trying to make with the person who leaves a laptop sitting in open view in his parked car. The rapist, just like the thief or kidnapper, is always wrong and 100% responsible for his actions. But the victims have some responsibility for putting themselves in a high-risk situation.
Or for example, what if I, as a parent, decided not to put my small child in a car seat, because I drive very safely (imagine for a moment it is not the law in my state). And then, a drunk driver runs a red light and hits me, and kills my small child, who may have not perished had he been in a car seat.
It's obviously the fault of the drunk driver for hitting my car. But I also should have put my kid in the car seat.
Obviously, most good people are not drunk drivers, just as most good people are not rapists. And obviously, driving at all is risky, but it's a risk most people take in order to live their lives, just as dating is risky, but it's a risk most people take in order to live their lives. But since driving is risky, responsible drivers take precautions, like putting their kids in car seats, just as people who date should take precautions, like not getting drunk at a frat party and going to some dude's dorm room.
It's suggested because they are saying the women are at fault for putting themselves in a vulnerable position. That women should know they are putting themselves in danger akin to traveling to North Korea or walking in gang banger territory. The idea that you can teach someone not to be raped is ridiculous.
As far as these analogies go....
If someone comes to you and says...my laptop was stolen or I was in a car accident, do you say..."that's terrible, but you are at fault since you...xyz" I have never heard that. You say, "oh my gosh that's terrible."
If your kids dies in a car accident, do you blame the parent for driving on the highway? They could have taken the safer surface streets or driven at a different time of day. Of course not, but that's what rape victims suffer. People analyze the victims choices and the focus is on the victim instead of the perpetrator.
The problem I have with the "don't blame the victim" message is that it has morphed from "if you are raped, it's not your fault, no matter what" to "girls have the right to act however they want, dress however they want, and do whatever they want, and if they get raped, it doesn't matter because it wasn't their fault". The first message is fine, yes, if you are raped, it's not your fault. Absolutely. But to use that message as an excuse to teach irresponsible behavior to young girls which can lead to them putting themselves in danger so that you can express your political point is just gross.
I will teach my daughter to always take steps to try to protect herself, in the way she dresses and behaves, and who she hangs out with. If she STILL gets raped, which she could, it's not her fault.
I will teach my son to always get verbal consent before any increase in intimacy, and to stop without that consent. And that if he is STILL falsely accused of rape, it's not his fault either.
It's suggested because they are saying the women are at fault for putting themselves in a vulnerable position. That women should know they are putting themselves in danger akin to traveling to North Korea or walking in gang banger territory. The idea that you can teach someone not to be raped is ridiculous.
As far as these analogies go....
If someone comes to you and says...my laptop was stolen or I was in a car accident, do you say..."that's terrible, but you are at fault since you...xyz" I have never heard that. You say, "oh my gosh that's terrible."
If your kids dies in a car accident, do you blame the parent for driving on the highway? They could have taken the safer surface streets or driven at a different time of day. Of course not, but that's what rape victims suffer. People analyze the victims choices and the focus is on the victim instead of the perpetrator.
No, that's not what's been "repeatedly suggested" in this thread.
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A d no, I do not view that situation any differently, in terms of responsibility. I had actually addressed that in another post. My disdain for the school of thought that places responsibility on a rape victim , regardless of events leading up to the rape, ....I thought I had made clear. Its why "asking for it" is in quotes, to show those are not my words. Hope that clears things up.