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Old 04-23-2016, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,231,627 times
Reputation: 16762

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Originally the laws written by the US government were based on the old way of physical tokens, but they abandoned that concept and changed the laws.
Actually, they did not change the constitution, ergo, any laws were enacted outside of constitutional authority - ahem - via the state of emergency.

STATE OF EMERGENCY
. . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_o...#United_States
As of October 2014, thirty states of emergency remain in effect, one reaching as far back as the Roosevelt Administration.

United States, Senate Report 93-549 states: "That since March 09, 1933 the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency." Proclamation No. 2039 declared by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on March 9, 1933. This declared national emergency has never been revoked and has been codified into the US Code (12 U.S.C. 95a and b).
. . . .
Senate Report 93-549
https://archive.org/stream/senate-re...3-549_djvu.txt
War and Emergency Powers Acts
"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years (as of the report 1933-1973), freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency."
FREEDOMS ... GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION ... HAVE BEEN ABRIDGED BY LAWS ... UNDER EMERGENCY RULE ...

Constitutional U.S.A. (1787 - 1933) R.I.P.

 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,231,627 times
Reputation: 16762
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Your tin foil hat is showing. Other than pointing out that "rights" has nothing to do with debate in question which is over the definition of "money", I really can't comment because what you said is just beyond comprehension.
Thank you for the kind words of support. Resorting to insults absent facts in rebuttal is capitulation.

As to the issue of RIGHTS, if I may point out that under the law, to prove title to private property (that constitutionally protected endowed right), three facts must be in evidence:
1. right to own (of legal age, not impaired, etc)
2. alienated title with lawful money (pesky gold and silver coin, pursuant to Art. 1, Sec. 10, USCON)
3. no superior right exists (which pretty much knocks out anyone signed up with FICA)
If you care to read your own state's constitution, you should find that while private property ownership is explicitly protected, qualified ownership of estate is subject to ad valorem taxation. And though private property cannot be taken for public use without just compensation, estate can and will be taken without just compensation being paid.

Since 1933, few, if any Americans "paid debt" with lawful money, hence moving from exercising the "right to transact business," to the privilege to transact business with worthless IOUs.

LEGAL TENDER STATUS
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...al-tender.aspx
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves..."
It's no coincidence that the year the government repudiated redeeming their notes (IOUs) as required by law (12 USC Sec. 411) is also the beginning of a perpetual 'temporary' State of Emergency.

Perhaps you can now comprehend the vast gulf between enjoying the benefits of absolute ownership of private property versus the taxed and regulated privilege of holding qualified ownership of real and personal property (estate).
 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,231,627 times
Reputation: 16762
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
If everyone on the planet simultaneously loans out 10% of their money, who would they loan it to? Some impossible mythical entity? Some random bank? Each other? If a mythical entity, then the entity could magically conjur up all the money it needs. If a bank, it would be in possession of so much money it would be beyond governmental laws. The bank officers would just use the money to buy a continent and tell the rest of humanity to just shove off; they'd never have to pay anything back. If to each other they would be earning and paying interest to each other simultaneously, for a net gain/loss of zero.
The example you mock was to simplify the situation.
However, in practice if 50% of the people lent 20% of their money to the other 50%, the same result occurs.

At the end of a finite period of time, the outstanding debt matches the total sum of money tokens, and any usury past that point can never be paid.
The.Money.Does.Not.Exist.

Right now, that is the situation facing all Americans who are "contributors" on the public debt.

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 24 Apr 2016 at 06:06:48 AM GMT is:
$ 19,202,403,915,145.61

This debt is NOT denominated in "dollar bills" (worthless IOUs), but in lawful money - gold coin. (Silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873).

Based on the Coinage Act of 1792, the national debt computes to 960,120,195,757 ounces (troy) of gold bullion, stamped into coin.

Roughly 960 billion ounces.

Problem #1: Fort Knox Depository (allegedly) holds 147.4 million ounces of gold bullion, if coined, would amount to approximately 3 billion dollars (pursuant to the Coinage Act).

Problem #2: World wide bullion is estimated at 5.5 billion ounces, which computes to 110 billion dollars.

Problem #3: Exactly what was lent to Congress to rack up owing 960 billion ounces of gold?

Problem #4: 14th amendment, Section 4.
"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."
Whether you wish to ignore law and embrace the notion that money is just an abstraction, the fact is that an IMPOSSIBLE debt cannot be legally questioned.

And if you're a contributor (via FICA) on the debt - hoo-eeee!
CONTRIBUTION - ... The share of a loss payable by an insurer when contracts with two or more insurers cover the same loss... The sharing of loss or payment among several...
--- Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 328
All claimants upon the Federal government (the creditor - and the recipients) can expect each enumerated American to SHARE in liability on the LOSS (bankruptcy).

That's how worthless IOUs became 'legal tender' - each enumerated human resource cannot object to the tender of a note that he is OBLIGATED upon.

D'Oh!

And, no, FICA / Social Security is NOT insurance for the participant. One of the most enduring myths of Social Security is that a worker has a legal right to his Social Security benefits. Many workers assume that, if they pay Social Security taxes into the system, they have some sort of legal guarantee to the system's benefits. The truth is exactly the opposite. It has long been law that there is no legal right to Social Security. In two important cases, Helvering v. Davis and Flemming v. Nestor, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Social Security taxes are simply taxes and convey no property or contractual rights to Social Security benefits.

P.S. - Congress has no power to CREATE MONEY.
Pursuant to law, Congress can coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money.
It cannot create bullion, nor can it give the power to create money to anyone else. And why would it need to borrow money if it could create money?
Which begs the question: What exactly is being used for money if it is not money?

Notes ("dollar bills") are not money.
NOTE - An instrument containing an express and absolute promise of signer (i.e. maker) to pay to a specified person or order, or bearer, a definite sum of money at a specified time. An instrument that is a promise to pay other than a certificate of deposit. U.C.C. 3-104(2)(d)
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1060

REAL MONEY - Money which has real metallic, intrinsic value as distinguished from paper currency, checks and drafts.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1264

MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
Do not believe me. Write a polite letter to your congressman and ask what law made dollar bills into dollars, or what constitutional clause empowered Congress to create money. Or how all Americans became obligated parties on the debt, so worthless notes would become 'legal tender.'

Good luck with your madness.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,016 posts, read 20,922,149 times
Reputation: 32530
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Money Blind?
=\=\=\=
Let’s get our reality straight.
Prosperity is NOT based on money.
Proof?
Tell me who is the prosperous person:
Mr A : who has a mountain of money tokens, but nothing to buy with them
-or-
Mr B : who has produced a prodigious surplus of usable goods and services, which he trades with others.
Obviously, Mr B is the prosperous man (in reality). But to those who are “money mad,” the fortune in tokens is more desirable, whether or not they’re of any use.

..................
Let's consider the first section of your original post, which I quoted above. While no one can quarrel with your example (i.e., we would all agree that if nothing can be bought with the money tokens, then they are worthless), what is the point of the example?

In reality money tokens can buy everything but happiness and good health; they can buy vehicles and fuel for same, food, clothing, lodging, entertainment, haircuts, repair services, and even good medical care (which unfortunately does not guarantee good health). Obviously the items in my list are by way of examples, not limitation. I am 72 and have never been refused when I wanted to buy something with money tokens. I have never had a merchant or provider of services say, "No, I will only accept barter."

Since your example of the worthless money tokens has nothing to do with reality, what is its point?
 
Old 04-24-2016, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,231,627 times
Reputation: 16762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Let's consider the first section of your original post, which I quoted above. While no one can quarrel with your example (i.e., we would all agree that if nothing can be bought with the money tokens, then they are worthless), what is the point of the example?

In reality money tokens can buy everything but happiness and good health; they can buy vehicles and fuel for same, food, clothing, lodging, entertainment, haircuts, repair services, and even good medical care (which unfortunately does not guarantee good health). Obviously the items in my list are by way of examples, not limitation. I am 72 and have never been refused when I wanted to buy something with money tokens. I have never had a merchant or provider of services say, "No, I will only accept barter."

Since your example of the worthless money tokens has nothing to do with reality, what is its point?
The POINT is that we're indoctrinated to view the MONEY as the valuable item, and not the goods and services.
People dream of "getting rich" and 'hitting the LOTTO'.
Few people dream of "doing more with less so more can enjoy!"

But in reality, prosperity IS not based on wealth. And those who control the volume and relative value of the money tokens know this and rule.

Prosperity is based on the production, trade and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services.

There is so much unmet need, so many unemployed or underemployed, and so many closed factories that it should scream “madness” into our consciousness.
...
One way to see the problem is to ask ...
● Why can’t people in need acquire necessities?
● Why can’t unemployed people find work?
● Why can’t closed factories and lost industries re-open?
Answer: No one has enough money to do those things.
...
Why would lack of money prevent people from working, trading and enjoying their production?
...
And who controls the creation and volume of money in circulation?
...
When you figure out the answers, you may find yourself “sane.”
 
Old 04-25-2016, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
3,045 posts, read 5,251,152 times
Reputation: 5156
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Your tin foil hat is showing. Other than pointing out that "rights" has nothing to do with debate in question which is over the definition of "money", I really can't comment because what you said is just beyond comprehension.
Thank you for the kind words of support. Resorting to insults absent facts in rebuttal is capitulation.

As to the issue of RIGHTS, if I may point out that under the law, to prove title to private property (that constitutionally protected endowed right), three facts must be in evidence:
If you want to take that as a "win" for your argument, then go for it. But I've encountered the same situation when arguing with young earthers, anti-vaxers, climate change deniers, etc. At some point they reveal that logic and reason does not apply to them, so you have no choice but to "capitulate" and walk away from the mythical world that exists inside their heads.

"Money" is a concept. It is the arbitrary assignment of a set value to an otherwise worthless object. Whether that object is a piece of soft yellow metal, a piece of cotton/linen cloth with pictures printed on it, or even just pixels on a computer screen (bitcoins) is irrelevant. If everyone agrees that the object has worth, then it has worth. If the belief fails, then the object ceases to have worth.

Any law written by a government defining "money" as a specific object can just as easily be changed by that same government, or even made void if the government fails. Yes, even the constitution of the United States of America can be changed. The fact that the US Government has chosen to affect that change in one way (declared "state of emergency") vs. a different way (constitutional amendment) is irrelevant. And yes, even the mighty United State of America can fail. Do you think the government of Rome owed any debt when it finally collapsed? Do you think the lenders were able to collect on that debt?



I will mention one off-topic thing about "rights". The only "rights" you are entitled to are the ones 1) you can protect for yourself or 2) the ones your society (government) will protect on your behalf. And any historic "right" protected by a government can be summarily removed if enough people want it removed. If you think otherwise then feel free to yell your opinions into the wind.

Now I bid your leave, and I may just try to stick a worthless IOU printed on a piece of worthless cloth into that vending machine in the lobby and see if a candy bar pops out.
 
Old 04-26-2016, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,231,627 times
Reputation: 16762
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
If you want to take that as a "win" for your argument, then go for it. But I've encountered the same situation when arguing with young earthers, anti-vaxers, climate change deniers, etc. At some point they reveal that logic and reason does not apply to them, so you have no choice but to "capitulate" and walk away from the mythical world that exists inside their heads.

"Money" is a concept. It is the arbitrary assignment of a set value to an otherwise worthless object. Whether that object is a piece of soft yellow metal, a piece of cotton/linen cloth with pictures printed on it, or even just pixels on a computer screen (bitcoins) is irrelevant. If everyone agrees that the object has worth, then it has worth. If the belief fails, then the object ceases to have worth.

Any law written by a government defining "money" as a specific object can just as easily be changed by that same government, or even made void if the government fails. Yes, even the constitution of the United States of America can be changed. The fact that the US Government has chosen to affect that change in one way (declared "state of emergency") vs. a different way (constitutional amendment) is irrelevant. And yes, even the mighty United State of America can fail. Do you think the government of Rome owed any debt when it finally collapsed? Do you think the lenders were able to collect on that debt?

I will mention one off-topic thing about "rights". The only "rights" you are entitled to are the ones 1) you can protect for yourself or 2) the ones your society (government) will protect on your behalf.
[No, you're wrong. See: Declaration of Independence.]

And any historic "right" protected by a government can be summarily removed if enough people want it removed. If you think otherwise then feel free to yell your opinions into the wind.
[Thanks to 83 years of emergency rules, you've been persuaded that you no longer have endowed rights that the founders fought and died to bestow on the posterity.]

Now I bid your leave, and I may just try to stick a worthless IOU printed on a piece of worthless cloth into that vending machine in the lobby and see if a candy bar pops out.
Money is a concept - an abstraction representing value of real goods and services. EXCEPT that no money system is actually proportional in quantity and value with the marketplace. Which invariably causes inequitable trades.

If the law is mythical, and emergency rules that bypass the constitution are irrelevant, perhaps you're right. But I don't like the "benevolent" totalitarian police state that is currently in power, with masked anonymous "enforcers," national passports (picture IDs), and debasement of the money token.

And if you bother to check the law, pre-1933, you might see some "interesting" differences in the rights and liberties of the once free Americans.

I will leave you with this small snippet.

The Great Confiscation: Gold ownership was illegal in the USA from 1933 to 1975
On March 6 of 1933, the President set in motion a chain of events that ended the international gold standard once and for all. First, he closed the nation’s banks and prohibited them from paying out or exporting gold coins and bullion, using emergency powers granted by the Trading with the Enemy Act that had been enacted during World War I.
From 1933 forward, private possession and ownership of gold was illegal for U.S. citizens. Any refusal to return one’s gold was punishable by a fine of $10,000 and 10 years in prison. These exceptional measures were aimed at preventing the general public from storing gold. The solution was simple: make it illegal to directly own gold.
In 1934, Roosevelt proclaimed the confiscation of the gold held by the banks (Gold Reserve Act: in exchange for gold certificates that could not be exchanged for gold!)
This law remained active in the USA until 1975, a few years after the dollar’s value had stopped being linked to that of gold.
Although private ownership of gold in the United States was legalized on August 15, 1974, the power to confiscate gold remains in the hands of the President. The President still retains the right, under the Emergency Banking Relief Act, to “investigate, regulate or prohibit… the importing, exporting, hoarding, melting or earmarking of gold” in times of a declared national emergency.

If you think about it, no American is "free" when he can't even own CONSTITUTIONAL MONEY.
But keep on laughing, just don't rattle your chains.
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