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Money Blind?
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Let’s get our reality straight.
Prosperity is NOT based on money.
Proof?
Tell me who is the prosperous person:
Mr A : who has a mountain of money tokens, but nothing to buy with them
-or- Mr B : who has produced a prodigious surplus of usable goods and services, which he trades with others.
Obviously, Mr B is the prosperous man (in reality). But to those who are “money mad,” the fortune in tokens is more desirable, whether or not they’re of any use.
The masters of money madness rely on our indoctrinated madness to desire money in order to trade, because all other avenues have been cut off, by law or custom. We’re trained to ‘need money’ in order to survive, and that means the money masters rule us, by virtue of scarce money. Governments support the madness by imposing tax burdens only payable in money. Fail to pay - suffer the penalty. D’Oh!
And even poverty is caused by money - not the lack of money. Consider what would happen if everybody woke up tomorrow, knowing that they had bank balances of 22 billion billion quatloos (a substantial sum!). Everyone is equally wealthy. They would never “need” money ever again. But does that eliminate poverty? Of course not. Without the need for money, why would anyone bother to go work, sweat, toil, farm, mine, fabricate, transport and trade? With nothing to buy, all that money is worthless, useless, and meaningless.
In reality, survival would compel us to be productive. But under money madness, we’re blind to reality. The simple fact is that we must be prodigiously productive because that is what civilized people do. All other lifestyles that involve avoiding labor and living a life of indolent consumption are contrary to reason and uncivilized, as well as inequitable - shifting the burden upon others for their support and sustenance.
There is only one answer to your question, Moderator cut: Poll Removed. Paper money (abstract tokens with an arbitrary worth) would be worthless during a time of economic chaos. It's happened countless times throughout history, even recent history. So the first answer is out. The second answer is only valid if the person has the means to defend their stockpile of food and supplies. The only correct answer is the third one.
I recall an article talking about a commune where they were redeveloping pre-electricity skills and were stockpiling huge supplies of food and tools. The people in the commune stressed peaceful living in harmony with the rest of the world. In the case of economic collapse, they spoke of setting up trade networks with other communities to survive. This article was posted to a rather raucous gun forum, and the general comments were along the line of, "Thanks for telling us where to send the first raiding party!"
As for your post itself, I have never met someone with "money madness". I'm picturing Scrooge McDuck in his vault diving into piles of gold, or Mr Crabs from Spongebob. These type of people may exist, but they must be rare.
Real people use money as a way to get other things, although many people do horde money for security. I have a retirement account, so technically I horde money for security. I also know people who collect gold and silver on the worry that US currency will collapse.
As for your post itself, I have never met someone with "money madness".
People who are money mad, can only evaluate with respect to the abstraction (money tokens) and ignore reality.
A good example of the disconnect between reality and the abstraction:
FRB: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.4 trillion in circulation as of February 18, 2016, of which $1.38 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ..._United_States
● ". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."
The $700 quintillion Asteroid Belt |
● NASA has estimated the mineral wealth of the entire Asteroid Belt could be as much as $700 quintillion, or a seven followed by 20 zero. That’s $100 billion for every one of the 7 billion people on Earth!
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How can you believe measurements that exceed the known total of circulating monies?
Isn’t that INSANE?
What’s really reality: the actual sum of property, goods and services - or - an arbitrary value and sum of money tokens ?
People who are money mad, can only evaluate with respect to the abstraction (money tokens) and ignore reality.
A good example of the disconnect between reality and the abstraction:
FRB: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.4 trillion in circulation as of February 18, 2016, of which $1.38 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ..._United_States
● ". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."
The $700 quintillion Asteroid Belt |
● NASA has estimated the mineral wealth of the entire Asteroid Belt could be as much as $700 quintillion, or a seven followed by 20 zero. That’s $100 billion for every one of the 7 billion people on Earth!
=\=\=\= How can you believe measurements that exceed the known total of circulating monies?
Isn’t that INSANE?
What’s really reality: the actual sum of property, goods and services - or - an arbitrary value and sum of money tokens ?
It's actually fairly common for net worth to be less than actual cash. To scale the numbers back to a more everyday comparison, consider the financial position of someone who purchased a house shortly before the housing market collapsed.
Right now, they could have something like $50k in their bank account.
They could also have a $180k mortgage on what was originally a $200k house that has now fallen in value to be only worth $150k(let's assume they've been paying interest only to keep the numbers round for now).
Total Assets is $150k house + $50 cash = $200k
Total Liabilities is $180k
Net worth is $20k
Compare that to Cash = $50k.
Cash (Your first number) is greater than Net Worth (Your second number).
We could also make this even simpler. Let's say you have student loans of $30k and cash of $5k. Same result. Your Net worth in this case is -$25k. Cash is $5k. Networth is lower than Cash.
None of these numbers are wrong or insane, it simply reflects the fact that the assets of the person have fallen in value compared to when they were borrowed against. Or put in financial terms, the person in insolvent, meaning that they don't have enough cash on hand to pay off all debts if they had to do so today(fortunately for most people and the country as a whole, all debt isn't due today).
Alternatively, someone who had cash and a house, but had paid off their mortgage would have a reversed cash vs net worth situation. The same would be true if the student loan example had paid off their loans and started investing in CD's. Net worth exceeds total cash.
You can scale all examples up, they still hold true. If you have a lot of debt, Net Worth can be lower than cash. If you have Non Cash assets, Net Worth can be higher than cash.
The fallacy here is attempting to compare cash to net worth. They aren't two ways of measuring the same thing, they're completely separate topics entirely.
That said, I'm not sure there's anyone who considers a person who walks into a bank and borrows $100k to suddenly be rich(which seems to be this so called Money Madness), but that's what someone would be arguing if they tried to support the Cash in Circulation number as a measure of net worth.
It's actually fairly common for net worth to be less than actual cash.
. . . SNIPPED . . .
That said, I'm not sure there's anyone who considers a person who walks into a bank and borrows $100k to suddenly be rich(which seems to be this so called Money Madness), but that's what someone would be arguing if they tried to support the Cash in Circulation number as a measure of net worth.
You misunderstand madness.
There are three pies in existence.
Can you really have a net worth of ten pies?
Or can you owe seven pies, having borrowed six pies and owing interest?
But there are only three pies in existence.
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Pursuant to Title 12 USC Sec. 411, the only way Congress can increase the supply of "dollar bills" (Federal Reserve Notes) is to go deeper into debt. . . borrowing at interest.
So for there to be 19 trillion "dollar bills" the debt would have to be increased to match, and then increased again, to pay interest.
...
A good example of the disconnect between reality and the abstraction:
FRB: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.4 trillion in circulation as of February 18, 2016, of which $1.38 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
...
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How can you believe measurements that exceed the known total of circulating monies?
Isn’t that INSANE?
...
First off, "currency in circulation" simply means the value of the paper money and coins that physically exist somewhere they can be used. It has actually no meaningful relationship to, well, much of anything outside of how much paper there is.
There are all sorts of things that have value that isn't represented by a piece of paper anywhere. If you build a house from scratch (like literally cut down trees, etc and bought nothing), it has value that doesn't have paper money in a bank representing it. So that's an example of real, tangible "money" or value that isn't represented in the number for "currency in circulation."
First off, "currency in circulation" simply means the value of the paper money and coins that physically exist somewhere they can be used. It has actually no meaningful relationship to, well, much of anything outside of how much paper there is.
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves..."
This is the consequence of bankruptcy, State of Emergency, and the Gold Reserve Act of 1934.
-OR-
Are you saying that paper money tokens in circulation are as real as money tokens that do not exist?
M2 consists of M1 plus (1) savings deposits (including money market deposit accounts); (2) small-denomination time deposits (time deposits in amounts of less than $100,000), less individual retirement account (IRA) and Keogh balances at depository institutions; and (3) balances in retail money market mutual funds, less IRA and Keogh balances at money market mutual funds. Seasonally adjusted M2 is constructed by summing savings deposits, small-denomination time deposits, and retail money funds, each seasonally adjusted separately, and adding this result to seasonally adjusted M1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias
There are all sorts of things that have value that isn't represented by a piece of paper anywhere. If you build a house from scratch (like literally cut down trees, etc and bought nothing), it has value that doesn't have paper money in a bank representing it. So that's an example of real, tangible "money" or value that isn't represented in the number for "currency in circulation."
Actually, that's a prime example of money madness - equating a real object to an abstraction that DOES NOT EXIST.
You cannot borrow 12 pies nor count 12 pies when only 3 pies exist.
● ". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."
With no more the 12.5 T dollar bills (M2), somehow $145.8 T in debt was BORROWED.
(Good trick, eh?)
Another way of looking at it - if all debts were called DUE, how can debtors pay $145.8 trillion with only 1.38 T in circulation (or 12.5 T overall)?
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You cannot borrow 12 pies nor count 12 pies when only 3 pies exist.
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It largely depends on how you define a pie, actually.
If you define a pie as a baked good that presently exists sitting on a counter then, no, you can't count 12 pies when only 3 exist.
But if you define a pie as a product constituted of flour and shortening and sugar and cherries and labor, something that can be made to order or defined and given a coupon for, then you could count or borrow more than just the number of baked goods sitting on the counter.
You also seem to be leaning toward a definition of money being best fixed to a limited commodity such as gold or silver. And that can work ok when the majority of things being traded are also physical things. But what happens when the majority of what is being traded is services? Then you have a situation where intangible things (hours of work or, even worse, ideas) with potentially unlimited supply become available against a finite system of payment. How do you get growth when any new idea has to not only be able to beat other ideas theoretically, but financially pull resources away from physical items like food and housing? If you believe that an idea can make a society richer, how does that meld with a resource constraint in how to account for it financially? A fiat currency allows some expansion for intangible things. And that's probably a good thing, because if gold can beat a good idea most of the time, how many people are going to focus on good ideas versus becoming miners?
"Money" is and always has been an abstract mathematical concept, and you apparently just can't grasp the concept.
Yes, it is possible for someone to claim to have a net worth of 10 pies even though only 3 pies exist. Just as it's possible for someone to have a net worth of -3 pies (i.e., they owe the value of three pies to someone else), even though it's impossible to have a negative pie. A single unit of currency has a set value that is established in relationship to something else. Say a pie is equal to 10 sacks of flour which is equal to two bushels of berries which is equal to half an hour of physical labor. You can trade a pie for any of those other things in a barter system.
Even back in the day of metal coins (gold, silver, copper, tin, bronze, etc.) money had two values... a "real" value (i.e., the worth of the actual metal in the coin) and the "abstract" mathematical value (the worth that society agreed was represented by the image on the coin).
Going even farther back, look at the "worth" of pure gold. Why is it worth so much? It's useless as a structural metal because it's so soft. Back before the time gold was needed in corrosion-resistant electronic connections it was mostly useless as a tool to keep yourself fed or clothed. But it had value because it was been deemed "pretty" and won't tarnish. It has been used in jewelry throughout history. People who could afford jewelry were seen as being "wealthy", so gold became a status symbol. It became an abstract concept of wealth. Over time gold gained more value than its intrinsic worth as a pure metal.
A piece of cloth (US currency is printed on cloth, linen and cotton, not paper) with specific ink on it in a specific pattern is "worth" exactly as much as people let it be worth. People around the world assign value to the dollar, so it is "worth" something. Right now it's worth about one vending machine candy bar. People who think like you and consider the US Dollar to be worthless are hording gold, thinking for some reason it has some type of worth and that it will retain that worth in a time of economic collapse.
But think about it. If you are starving, then what good is gold to you? You can't eat it or use it to obtain food or shelter in any way. Unless, someone else who has food decides to place an abstract value the gold and agrees to trade food for your otherwise useless chunk of soft yellow metal.
Last edited by An Einnseanair; 04-08-2016 at 08:16 AM..
"Money" is and always has been an abstract mathematical concept, and you apparently just can't grasp the concept.
You're wrong.
Don't believe me - the law states otherwise.
REAL MONEY - Money which has real metallic, intrinsic value as distinguished from paper currency, checks and drafts.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1264
MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins [real money] and paper currency [certificates - receipts] used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
NOTE - An instrument containing an express and absolute promise of signer (i.e. maker) to pay to a specified person or order, or bearer, a definite sum of money at a specified time. An instrument that is a promise to pay other than a certificate of deposit. U.C.C. 3-104(2)(d)
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1060
(A federal reserve NOTE / aka / "dollar bill" is not money. A certificate is.)
LAWFUL MONEY - "The terms 'lawful money' and 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States..."
Title 12 United States Code, Sec. 152.
TITLE 12,CHAPTER 3,SUBCHAPTER XII,sec. 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption
" Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be OBLIGATIONS of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in LAWFUL MONEY on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank."
The dollar bill (FRN) is an IOU, issued on the authority of Congress to BORROW money.
. . .
Coinage Act of 1792
"Dollars, or units; each to be of the value of a Spanish milled as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four-sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard, silver."
"Eagles each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold."
--- Sec. 9, Coinage Act of 1792, January 1792
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves. . . "
. . .
Based on the preceding, we know that since 1933, no MONEY has circulated, real or otherwise. Worthless IOUs (debt) have been used to cheat people and steal their property rights.
Is that a "concept" we understand?
Colloquial definition:
MONEY - A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Money is NOT an abstract mathematical concept, but a medium of exchange for goods and services. That there can never be proportionality between money and the marketplace is but one aspect of its INSANITY. And those who control the volume and value of money tokens rule those who are MADDENED by it.
However, usury (interest) IS mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system. The exponential equation used for compound interest requires an INFINITE money supply, which makes it impossible to function over the long term.
(Do the math: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_value)
No school of eCONomics dare denounce usury as an abomination and a scam. So much for the "science" aspect.
Money madness IS a way to cheat people without their knowledge, because few people understand what it involves, believing in myths, lies and soundbites.
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