Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What's a "fair wage"? The minimum wage in Massachusetts is $11/hour and is going up to $15/hour in 2023. When you can get $15/hour as a convenience store clerk, what do you have to pay somebody to pump out septic tanks and similar jobs nobody wants to do?
Here's a couple of examples. Out here in the southwest construction and commercial landscaping jobs use to pay twice as much as they do now. The reason being the availability of millions of cheap illegals that are doing it for half price now. Those jobs use to support a middle classed family until that happened to make the rich, richer. I could give you a few more examples but the above jobs are where most illegals have flooded.
They stand on corners soliciting for those types of jobs and Joe Cheapskate picks them up and hires them instead of Americans. This wouldn't be happening if they weren't in our country in the first place. They get paid in cash and no taxes are withheld and we have to pick up the tab for their enormous social costs. They also send billions back to their homelands not spent in our economy.
As I said, I have no problem with legal immigrants as they pay taxes and aren't reducing wages.
We've always had people coming into this land, as even the founders of this country did. Only how we react to them has changed. A great contrast in showing this is comparing our current times vs. when the Statue of Liberty first came to and graced our shores. We had dignity and respect in previous times, and also were respected in return. The opposite is very much the case now. Many even have no respect for themselves. Humanity devalued to the level of dirt.
You've left out several aspects the current immigration problem.
1. The immigrants of the past AND our current poor didn't get all the government help that the current ones get. We can't afford to take in every impoverished unskilled person trying to escape their broken country.
2. The immigrants of the past made a much greater effort to assimilate into American society. Not so now. Too many don't bother to learn English and stay in cloistered immigrant communities. And this type of diversity is causing our American society to become fragmented.
3. The immigrants naturally gravitate to the urban hot spots for the jobs. However, there is already a shortage of affordable housing for American citizens, so where are these people who arrive with nothing supposed to live?
4. Education costs in the US keep rising. Having to teach non-English speaking students makes the situation much worse. Many Hispanic students all over the MA are unable to get a high school degree, even with the schools putting more effort into trying to teach them. And this also takes attention away from our American born English speaking students.
5. Some liberals like to think that new immigrants are willing and fine working minimum wage jobs, but not so. In Boston, the immigrant workers who are members of the hotel workers union or the SEIU union are always striking for a livable wage. So letting more immigrants in, is not going to give us content minimum wage job holders.
6. What about all the homeless on the streets of our major cities and national parks? Shouldn't we find work and homes for them before inviting in the impoverished from Central America and the Caribbean Island?
7. Many countries only allow in wannabe immigrants if they have enough wealth, so that they don't take benefits from the new country that they haven't earned yet. So why does the US have to take in the impoverished?
8. We are actually not a wealth country. Our government is in massive debt. And most citizens carry a lot of debt. We can't afford to be taxed more just to help these asylum seekers who don't speak our language, have no desirable job skills and make lots of babies.
And lastly -
8. IF this land really belongs to the Native Americans, so who are you to invite more foreigners into it?
9. If many in the black community feel that they are owed reparations from slavery, why are you letting in illegals and impoverished immigrants before the black community is made whole?
You've left out several aspects the current immigration problem.
1. The immigrants of the past AND our current poor didn't get all the government help that the current ones get. We can't afford to take in every impoverished unskilled person trying to escape their broken country. That's a good point.
2. The immigrants of the past made a much greater effort to assimilate into American society. Not so now. Too many don't bother to learn English and stay in cloistered immigrant communities. And this type of diversity is causing our American society to become fragmented. Really? You never heard of "Little Italy", or "Little Poland", or "Irish shanty town"?
3. The immigrants naturally gravitate to the urban hot spots for the jobs. However, there is already a shortage of affordable housing for American citizens, so where are these people who arrive with nothing supposed to live? I'm not sure this is valid. The demand to build housing is dependent on the demand to buy and rent housing.
4. Education costs in the US keep rising. Having to teach non-English speaking students makes the situation much worse. Many Hispanic students all over the MA are unable to get a high school degree, even with the schools putting more effort into trying to teach them. And this also takes attention away from our American born English speaking students. I was the principal of a middle school that had a significant population of ESL students, requiring at least 2 full-time ESL teachers, sometimes part-time ESL teachers, and still many were mainstreamed to some degree. Not $1 was diverted from the reg ed population to support out ESL students. If there was a money drain it was in special education.
5. Some liberals like to think that new immigrants are willing and fine working minimum wage jobs, but not so. In Boston, the immigrant workers who are members of the hotel workers union or the SEIU union are always striking for a livable wage. So letting more immigrants in, is not going to give us content minimum wage job holders. I don't know.
6. What about all the homeless on the streets of our major cities and national parks? Shouldn't we find work and homes for them before inviting in the impoverished from Central America and the Caribbean Island? That old chestnut is nonsense. Even if we had 0% illegal aliens, we wouldn't be solving the problems of the homeless.
7. Many countries only allow in wannabe immigrants if they have enough wealth, so that they don't take benefits from the new country that they haven't earned yet. So why does the US have to take in the impoverished? We don't have to. But, keep in mind that some countries that do as you say don't have the wealth to give such benefits. I'm not advocating it, but we like to brag that we're the richest, most advanced nation in the world.
8. We are actually not a wealth country. Our government is in massive debt. And most citizens carry a lot of debt. We can't afford to be taxed more just to help these asylum seekers who don't speak our language, have no desirable job skills and make lots of babies. So if illegal immigration were reduced to zero, most citizens would stop carrying a lot of debt?
And lastly -
8. IF this land really belongs to the Native Americans, so who are you to invite more foreigners into it? All I can say is OMG.
9. If many in the black community feel that they are owed reparations from slavery, why are you letting in illegals and impoverished immigrants before the black community is made whole? Again, you're saying that if we eliminated illegal immigration we would actually address the needs of the Black community?
2. Really? You never heard of "Little Italy", or "Little Poland", or "Irish shanty town"? We have a Little Italy and a Chinatown in Boston, MA. Both are contained small areas of the city. Both have great ethnic restaurants and grocery stores. In particular, the Little Italy is known for extremely clean sidewalks and tidy building appearances. By contrast, the Hispanic population is scattered and in the poorer neighborhoods of Boston. Their streets are dirty and the neighborhoods are disheveled looking. There are no Little Mexico or Little Central America areas
There is a Little Central America neighbourhood going in Union Square, Somerville and one in East Boston.
However, what has been pointed out to me by older Polish-American citizens is that their parents told them to only speak English outside their homes. Their culture was kept alive inside the home, the Polish-American clubs and restaurants. But in public, in the schools and at work, they would only speak English.
Meanwhile, Hispanics speak Spanish in public, at work and anywhere they feel like. And our governments spend money to offer Spanish as an alternate language on signs and other correspondence ("press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish"). And in the workplace, it's extremely rude to speak Spanish when the other workers only speak English, but they still do. And that is very divisive.
3. I'm not sure this is valid. The demand to build housing is dependent on the demand to buy and rent housing.Why isn't it valid. Boston has a housing shortage. The builders are only interested in creating luxury housing. The city makes them set aside a small percentage of units for "affordable housing" and that is handed out by a lottery system. Hundreds sign up for these lotteries. So as it is, American citizens are already patiently waiting their turn for this housing. So again, these asylum seekers arrive in the US with nothing and no valuable job skills. Where are they supposed to live?
4. I was the principal of a middle school that had a significant population of ESL students, requiring at least 2 full-time ESL teachers, sometimes part-time ESL teachers, and still many were mainstreamed to some degree. Not $1 was diverted from the reg ed population to support out ESL students. If there was a money drain it was in special education.It's not only the extra cost of teaching non-native English speaking students. It's also just having MORE students. Poor immigrants end up living in poor neighbourhoods because the cost of living is cheaper. However, that means the school budgets are lower because of lower property taxes. And in the US, the average annual cost to educate a grade school student per year is $11K!!! And where is that additional $11K a year supposed to come from? Especially since these new immigrant families have large numbers of children (3+) with them. The math just doesn't add up.
Special education is a money drain, but so is dealing with Hispanic students. NPR radio had a great segment about a month ago discussing how to fix the school system to help more Hispanic students graduate from high school. This other podcast says that 14% of Hispanic students weren't graduating in 2015. Meanwhile, there was a guest suggesting that the bar be lowered so that they could pass and get their degree, since not graduating high school is a barrier to getting a job.
5. I don't know.Well again, I am telling you that Hispanics who are considered unskilled labour get jobs in the hospitality industry in housekeeping and also as cleaners in office buildings. If they are in unions, they demand more than minimum wages for their work, they want middle class wages and with health benefits. So that kills the liberals' argument that we need to allow more immigrants to do the cheapest and dirtiest jobs in our country.
6. That old chestnut is nonsense. Even if we had 0% illegal aliens, we wouldn't be solving the problems of the homeless.Agreed. But why create more needy people in our country when we already have millions of people in need? Don't we want less problems in our society, not more of them???
7. We don't have to. But, keep in mind that some countries that do as you say don't have the wealth to give such benefits. I'm not advocating it, but we like to brag that we're the richest, most advanced nation in the world.You don't see me bragging about our country's wealth. And who cares about bragging rights anyway? We need to stick to the facts. Bragging is for idiot sports fans in love with their teams. Bragging is just a bunch of hot air!!!
8. We are actually not a wealth country. Our government is in massive debt. And most citizens carry a lot of debt. We can't afford to be taxed more just to help these asylum seekers who don't speak our language, have no desirable job skills and make lots of babies. So if illegal immigration were reduced to zero, most citizens would stop carrying a lot of debt? My point was that the US and its citizens are in fact... NOT WEALTHY!!! We have nothing extra to share with the poor unwashed masses of the world.
Americans seem to be willing to carry a lot debt in order to maintain a certain quality of lifestyle. We are willing to take out a mortgage in order to eventually own our homes. We borrow money to buy a new car. Just as the Danish and Swedes are willing to pay high income taxes in order to have "free healthcare" and other wonderful amenities their country has. Having a high quality of life costs mucho dineros, and it's not fair when others want to partake of this wonderfulness without actually contributing to it.
And lastly -
8. IF this land really belongs to the Native Americans, so who are you to invite more foreigners into it? All I can say is OMG.Really? Is that all you have to say about that?
9. If many in the black community feel that they are owed reparations from slavery, why are you letting in illegals and impoverished immigrants before the black community is made whole? Again, you're saying that if we eliminated illegal immigration we would actually address the needs of the Black community?And again I say, why increase the number of people in need and in crisis? We will always have a huge income gap, as long as we allow in people with nothing.
(Link to post location) My point was that the US and its citizens are in fact... NOT WEALTHY!!! We have nothing extra to share with the poor unwashed masses of the world.
Americans seem to be willing to carry a lot debt in order to maintain a certain quality of lifestyle. We are willing to take out a mortgage in order to eventually own our homes. We borrow money to buy a new car. Just as the Danish and Swedes are willing to pay high income taxes in order to have "free healthcare" and other wonderful amenities their country has. Having a high quality of life costs mucho dineros, and it's not fair when others want to partake of this wonderfulness without actually contributing to it.
I am a little less dogmatic. I would welcome people who have the potential to "actually contribute" to the "wonderfulness" of America. The likes of Joseph Pulitzer and Albert Einstein, as well as my great-grandparents arrived with little if any resources. My great grandparents, at least my maternal grandmother's parents, came as from Ukraine as deserters from the Czar's army. I know nothing about my maternal grandfather's parents aside from a flap about their name at Ellis Island but my maternal grandfather became a much loved dentist in Yonkers. My paternal grandfather became an architect. All were net contributors to this country.
Others come from cultures that largely prevent that. However, the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (link) and Bridget Gabrielle (link) originate from those cultures but are clearly ready and able to commit themselves fully to Western and American values. We must find a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I am a little less dogmatic. I would welcome people who have the potential to "actually contribute" to the "wonderfulness" of America. The likes of Joseph Pulitzer and Albert Einstein, as well as my great-grandparents arrived with little if any resources. My great grandparents, at least my maternal grandmother's parents, came as from Ukraine as deserters from the Czar's army. I know nothing about my maternal grandfather's parents aside from a flap about their name at Ellis Island but my maternal grandfather became a much loved dentist in Yonkers. My paternal grandfather became an architect. All were net contributors to this country.
Others come from cultures that largely prevent that. However, the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (link) and Bridget Gabrielle (link) originate from those cultures but are clearly ready and able to commit themselves fully to Western and American values. We must find a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.
No. Because that would be mean and judgmental. </liberals>
Remember, there are no losers, only winners! Everyone is wheat, no one is chaff.
Our school systems are also wasting a lot of effort and money on trying to make every student excel in STEM and be good enough to get into Harvard. But realistically, a lot of students would be happier and more productive in the hospitality industry or the trades. And with many recent immigrants, they are just happy to not be in their broken country anymore. Having their children grow up to become doctors or thrive in Silicon Valley is very low on their priority lists. And it takes having tiger parents for a student to excel in the academics. Without parental encouragement, support and even threats, most children would rather play after school than spend extra hours doing homework.
I am a little less dogmatic. I would welcome people who have the potential to "actually contribute" to the "wonderfulness" of America. The likes of Joseph Pulitzer and Albert Einstein, as well as my great-grandparents arrived with little if any resources. My great grandparents, at least my maternal grandmother's parents, came as from Ukraine as deserters from the Czar's army. I know nothing about my maternal grandfather's parents aside from a flap about their name at Ellis Island but my maternal grandfather became a much loved dentist in Yonkers. My paternal grandfather became an architect. All were net contributors to this country.
Others come from cultures that largely prevent that. However, the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (link) and Bridget Gabrielle (link) originate from those cultures but are clearly ready and able to commit themselves fully to Western and American values. We must find a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I can relate to ancestors who "arrived with little if any resources" in America, from Western European countries (1700's) as well as my husband from a Southern European country (1970's). I'm not going to offer a lecture on the merits of my understanding and experiences other than to say this, I am strongly in favor of immigration. Yes, I am, Legal immigration. However, I have to say that I agree with the sentiments of President James Madison concerning his view on naturalization and citizenship in America.
It comes as no surprise to anyone that the current immigration system is completely broken. Before we can address America's issues about legal and illegal immigration in any bona fide and meaningful way, we must fix that which is broken. Otherwise we are, in essence continuing to kick the can down the road exacerbating further the circumstances of immigration which continue to be an issue with no end in sight.
Surely America has a multitude of brilliant men and women of both a social and political mind to draft an immigration policy which is humane, ethical, practical and which allows for an opinion to bring the best and the brightest to our shores along with a humane system to the degree it allows for the downtrodden as well. Then all we need is a government which comes together and reach an agreement on what is "the truly right thing to do" for citizens and immigrants alike.
I have serious doubts that I will live long enough to see it happen (at least as I envision it) but perhaps my children or grandchildren will...one day
When good men do nothing America’s immigration system is broken This the result of decades of dodging hard decisions
Jun 30th 2018 | MCALLEN, TEXAS
If there were ever a perfect moment for immigration reform, this is it. The border now has more fencing and police than it did in 2000, when crossings were at their peak. Then virtually all migrants were Mexicans. Today, with Mexico’s economy and birth rate both stable, nearly half come from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador—weak states wracked by gang violence—enduring a costly and treacherous journey north. As of early 2017, America was experiencing a net outflow of undocumented Mexican migrants and a decline in its Mexican-born population.
America’s immigration system offers something to displease everyone.
James Madison (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836), an American statesman, political theorist, party leader and fourth president of the United States of America (1809–1817), was one of the most influential Founding Fathers of the United States.
"When we are considering the advantages that may result from an easy mode of naturalization, we ought also to consider the cautions necessary to guard against abuses. It is no doubt very desirable that we should hold out as many inducements as possible for the worthy part of mankind to come and settle amongst us, and throw their fortunes into a common lot with ours. But why is this desirable? Not merely to swell the catalogue of people. No, sir, it is to increase the wealth and strength of the community; and those who acquire the rights of citizenship, without adding to the strength or wealth of the community are not the people we are in want of."
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I have two thoughts:
1. Morally, the needs of natives don't matter any more than the needs of immigrants or the needs of people around the world. This is cosmopolitanism in a nutshell. The fact that I am an American doesn't mean I should care about Americans I have never met than foreigners I have never met.
2. Second-generation immigrants are net-positive contributors to the economy more so than natives. While first-generation immigrants contribute less than natives, this effect is more than made up for by their children. Immigration in general has a net positive economic effect.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
