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The poster made a false comparison when he pointed to post-Soviet Russia and post-Saddam Iraq as parallels to the United States in 2020. Prior to 1991 in the Soviet Union, people had no recourse, no way to petition the government to take down statues or monuments. Statues and images of Stalin (and before that, Trotsky) had been scrubbed by the government itself without the input of the governed. So when the people were freed essentially overnight they reacted with pent-up frustration. The same thing happened in 2003 in Iraq.
People in the U.S. have been free for decades to petition their local governments to take down confederate monuments. Suddenly in the past few weeks, mobs of radicals have seized an opportunity to destroy public property without the consent of the governed.
Comparisons between the USA and USSR and Iraq under Sadam are certainly off base, but there is a genuine point about democracy being more than just majority rule and holding elections. Successful democracy also requires protection of the rights of the minority.
It isn't as if people haven't peaceful lobbied elected officials to take down Confederate statues. They have, it's just that elected officials have by and large ignored those requests.
As much as I don't like mobs ripping down statues it is only natural that some will grow frustrated and give up on the democratic process and take it into their own hands. That will of course also lead to it's own backlash and we are off to the races in an escalation of social polarization.
I do hope we can find a common ground that recognizes Confederate statues are uniquely grotesque, given their association with slavery and mass resistance to civil rights, and should come down as a sign of respect to our fellow Americans.
But you still have the right to free expression, even if your candidate loses. And people will (or in the past they would) fight for your right to vote for a candidate they dislike or to say something that they personally disagree with.
That same freedom extends to the southern sympathizers who want to preserve the statues. To date I haven't seen a group come forward with the money and the land to display at their own expense. I have no problem with what people do on their own land as long as it doesn't infringe on my well being.
Like I finished my original post with, I'm sure there would be a rebellion in the deep south if there were Union soldier statues and white surrender flags in public places - just to make sure the southerners know where they stand.
It isn't as if people haven't peaceful lobbied elected officials to take down Confederate statues. They have, it's just that elected officials have by and large ignored those requests.
This can't be repeated enough.
In North Carolina, the legislature and governor doubled down on Confederate statues and signed a law to protect Confederate statues.
I don't agree with unruly mobs, but as with everything in life there are exceptions. The United States would not be a sovereign nation if not for the mobs who dumped tea in the harbor.
That same freedom extends to the southern sympathizers who want to preserve the statues. To date I haven't seen a group come forward with the money and the land to display at their own expense. I have no problem with what people do on their own land as long as it doesn't infringe on my well being.
They want "freedom" to keep on using tax dollars to preserve statues of traitors
That same freedom extends to the southern sympathizers who want to preserve the statues. To date I haven't seen a group come forward with the money and the land to display at their own expense. I have no problem with what people do on their own land as long as it doesn't infringe on my well being.
Like I finished my original post with, I'm sure there would be a rebellion in the deep south if there were Union soldier statues and white surrender flags in public places - just to make sure the southerners know where they stand.
There aren't any Confederate statues in the North that I know of. But in northern states, at least one statue of a martyred abolitionist (Madison, WI) has been destroyed by a mob, and at least one statue of Abraham Lincoln (Washington DC) has been threatened with destruction by a mob. Those two specific incidents are what got me to post this in the first place.
And by the way, there are monuments and statues dedicated to fallen Union soldiers throughout the South. I am not aware of any of those being desecrated by mobs, but perhaps they were in olden times or even recently. Needless to say, I am against that.
Removing a public statue honoring someone has precisely nothing to do with anyone's rights.
So those Russians who tore down statues of Lenin and Dzerzhinsky in 1991 were against freedoms of speech and thought? So, too, those Iraqis who tore down statues of Saddam Hussein in 2003?
Of course they were not. The idea is ludicrous, as is the notion that not honoring the founder of the KKK with a statue is an assault on liberty.
Here it comes. The slippery slope fallacy. It always makes an appearance. It goes something like this:
"If we don't honor terrorists (like Forrest, founder of the terrorist Klan) then we can't honor anybody!"
Of course, this is nonsense. Yes, there will be calls to to tear down all the statues of Washington. Let me know when they're all gone. It won't happen. Will there be isolated incidents? Surely. There always are.
Society has always decided who should and who should not be honored with statues. That's why we don't have any statues of Benedict Arnold. No one runs around saying "How can we honor Washington if we don't honor Arnold?". Collectively, we decide. Will those decisions make everyone happy? Of course not.
Welcome to sharing a country with 300+ million other people. Breaking news - individuals don't always get their way.
PS - Let us all know when your 'freedom-loving' cheerleaders here all reverse course and stop demanding that football players who dare to make a protest during a song be hounded of the NFL and suddenly start defending Jane Fonda's opinion and her rights when it comes to photo-ops.
Just don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
A football player taking a knee is light years away from Jane Fonda actually aiding and abetting an enemy of our country. Treason and protest are not in the same dimension..........
Fact: These statues, confederate or not, ARE NOT the property of x-number of protesters screaming in the streets or the rioters/anarchists tearing them down or trying to tear them down; but too weak and ignorant to do it. They are mostly owned by the government that placed them there and that government (be it federal, state or city) is responsible and that government is funded by the taxpayer. Some are place there at permission of the government by organizations and some are on private land (but not sure if any on private lands have been torn down).
Therefore, who gives these people the right to tear these statues down or deface them? NO ONE gives them that right.
The right to remove these statues is up to the government agency that place them there, continue to upkeep them or gave permission to an organization to place a statues on government property. Therefore, only that government agency has the right to remove them. And that government is not just a sitting president, mayor, governor, etc., it is the legislative body and/or an approved and legal petition of the citizens.
I for one don't give a hoot about any confederate statues and I lived in TN for seven years so I saw quite a few of them while living there and traveling i that area. Want to have them removed, petition the gov't and get it done or start a petition.
However, if you attempt to are actual do illegally remove one you need to be prosecuted and/or stopped. And if you are a mob trying to tear one down, then there is one way to handle a mob and that is to disperse it as soon as possible by any means necessary. For you with soft hearts, I would go with rubber bullets, tear gas, mounted police, etc. However, if the mob starts throwing dangerous objects like glass bottles, cement blocks, large rocks, urine in bottles, etc., then the police need to be able to defend against dangerous weapons like any other person can do and that is with deadly force.
Do I want to see a bunch of people shot? NO. But I also don't want to see police injured and the perps getting away with it.
And while you are all trying to rid the world of statutes some morons just don't like, or renaming cities, etc., how about renaming all those roads, bridges in WV that were named for the Robert Byrd, an active member of the WV KKK, and the person who led the filibuster against the '64 civil rights act.
So stop with the mob rule, it does not fly with the majority of the people. We are tired of your demanding that statues be removed, to defund the police. You are NOT the majority.
A football player taking a knee is light years away from Jane Fonda actually aiding and abetting an enemy of our country. Treason and protest are not in the same dimension..........
SO VERY TRUE!
I'm a 'Nam vet, a player taking a knee is one thing and I can tune that out of my head and off my TV when I want. The picture of that [moderator cut: Do not attempt to circumvent the profanity filter, regardless of how strongly you may feel about something.] (trying to be nice here) in North Vietnam siding with the enemy is forever burned into my mind and all I ask is that I live long enough to visit her grave and leave her a little present.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 06-25-2020 at 04:00 PM..
We DO NOT allow Mob Rule. When we do our country is gone, and it looks like it is gone now.
Am I willing to fight to remove mob rule? Yes. I may be 72 but still able to stand up for this country. I did it for many years.
How would you go about doing that?
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