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Except when it comes to violence toward people and/or unless it involves breaking a law, I believe that the will of the majority of the people in a community should prevail. If the majority of people living in a community where a statue is located want that statue torn down, fine -- and if they want the statue to remain, then that is what should happen.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the racial issues which are, literally, on the front burner today, and I wanted to say something about the statues, but I want to lead into that by telling you of an experience I had many years ago when I lived in Virginia. I often would visit the various Civil War Battlefields, and one day I was at a Union cemetery somewhere around Fredericksburg and I was walking among the graves. Right across the lane was a small Confederate Cemetery. To my surprise, a car pulled up and a family got out of the car and walked over to one of the Confederate graves, placed flowers on the grave, and then spent a few minutes praying. I was quite touched that more than a hundred years later a family was still remembering one of their ancestors. And it’s good to remember that every Confederate soldier was also a son, or a father, or a brother, or a grandchild that was loved by family members. There is virtually nothing in man’s history that is more disgusting or repugnant than the concept of slavery. And it is shameful (literally) that the Confederates forsook the true meaning of the New Testament to attempt to justify slavery (and justify it they did, not just through their actions as slave owners, but also in their articles of secession). Shame, shame, shame, forever shame.
I will start out by saying that this is one of the most beautiful posts I've read even if we frequently disagree and may not agree on all of it. Slavery was a blot on our nation's history, and most of human history. Slavery has existed in one form or another almost everywhere and even today, to some extent it has mutated rather than disappeared. This part of the post was especially beautiful.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
Then we come to the issue of the statues. As a person who is interested in history, I have never understood why we honor traitors to our nation, traitors who fought and killed citizens who remained loyal to our nation. Yes, I realize it is part of the South’s attempt to portray its sordid history with the “Lost Cause” concept, which always fails. It seems inconceivable to me that there are Americans still waving the Confederate flag as if it is honorable. As far as I’m concerned, every Confederate statue should be taken down, but legally so*, and I think it would be appropriate for some of the statues to be placed in national battlefields and museums, with plaques and explanations that put them in perspective. History is still history. But then we get into another class of statue – Washington and Jefferson. Yes, these men owned slaves. Shame on them, as well. But is that the only measure of a man? Does the arguable fact that there was no single man more responsible for saving our nation during the Revolutionary War mean nothing as to how we look at George Washington? Does the fact that great Black civil rights leaders often quote/quoted Thomas Jefferson’s words as used in the Declaration Of Independence and his influence on the Constitution mean nothing as to how we look at Thomas Jefferson? If one thinks context is important, there is context here, as well.
Getting back to my asterisk in the previous paragraph. I’ve literally cheered as some of the statues of the likes of Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson have come down. But on the other hand it bothers me that it’s being done illegally. If, in terms of principle, we say that one group of angry protesters have the right to tear down Confederate statues, what can we say – again, in terms of principle -- to a group of angry redneck protesters who might try to tear down statues of Martin Luther King? All I’m really saying is that the solutions to where we are, are not simple. They are complex. Are we sophisticated enough and principled enough to do the right thing, for the right reason, in the right way?
In substance we agree. I think that the Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson statues perhaps should remain standing, with conspicuous explanations that they are a blot on our history. As you say, history is history. But this is a quibble. The post was written from the heart and needs to be treasured.
I am from the south , many generations southern and I am very glad the statues are coming down . Now if they would only tell the unslanted truth in alot of the schools there ...
The longer and farther I lived from the south in this life the more shocked I was at what we'd been taught . I graduated high school in 1980 so 60's and 70's . My kids went to school in the south also and it is getting better but there is still a ways to go in some schools .
I think people are pulling the statues down because they have not been able to get them removed any other way. I think all statues honoring Confederates should be taken down. I personally don’t have a problem with memorials to the Confederate fallen. I do not think that we have any business honoring specific people who fought against their country, as heroes.
With regards to statues of our founding fathers, I feel that statues and memorials honoring them, should be kept in place. None of us would be living in the United States now, if it were not for them. I think we honor Washington and Jefferson in spite of their attachment to keeping slaves. Even with this enormous flaw, our country’s original sin, I think we should honor them with qualification. They were flawed people who put their wealth above their misgivings about slavery. But their actions gave us our country.
Basically, our monuments honor the people our society deems worthy of honor. If someone’s conduct was traitorous, we should not honor him or her.
In the Houston airport (I think it is Houston) there is a statue of Barbara Jordan. I can get behind that monument.
A tree has roots.
Roots feed tree and anchor it in the ground, so that tree can withstand storms and grow.
When roots are removed or, badly damaged, tree dies.
For decades, Britons smirked at other countries, that toppled their statues.
Britons said: Yes, we do have statue of Henry the 8th. Yes, we do know, he was one of the worst men and rulers known to humanity. We do know all that. HE WAS PART OF OUR HISTORY and, as such, his statue stays so that we can teach out generations on how a ruler should NOT be.
Of course, now even Britain is plagued with revision.
Great Chairman Mao, when he was guiding Cultural Revolution, said, that, when history is erased, it allows to create a clean slate of masses, and that slate can be written over with whatever new ideas one wishes to.
Beware, States, as you have VERY shallow history and, your tree roots are weak and small in numbers. When they are cut, tree will topple or, split into many splinters.
Most governments would not allow a revival of popular following for a rebellion.
from your link ...
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“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.
In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy
I'm not saying 75% of them shouldn't go. I'm saying let's look at the possibility there's some that are memorials and not glorification of slavery or any who pushed for secession because of it. Isn't Robert E Lee actually a great example for the history to be completely told?
I'd like to think on this (below) all reasonable people agree it's wrong:
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In 1956, Georgia redesigned its state flag to include the Confederate battle flag; and in 1962, South Carolina placed the flag atop its capitol building.
They have been doing more than taking down statues. People are losing their jobs. No one should ever let a lawless mob tear down any statue. It only encourages more lawlessness. And I don't think it's right to take down historic works of art, even legally, because they aren't PC anymore. People need to understand history, not reject it.
I don't like lawless mobs throwing red paint onto historical figures or pulling down statues, but sometimes you need to understand history in order to reject it.
I am from the south , many generations southern and I am very glad the statues are coming down . Now if they would only tell the unslanted truth in alot of the schools there ...
The longer and farther I lived from the south in this life the more shocked I was at what we'd been taught . I graduated high school in 1980 so 60's and 70's . My kids went to school in the south also and it is getting better but there is still a ways to go in some schools .
I grew up in NC, graduating HS in 1984. My wife, different part of NC, 1986. My kids - one has just graduated, the other is a rising 10th grader. None of us was ever taught - at home or especially in school - to glorify the South's cause or that we were a superior race to blacks.
Originally Posted by DutchessCottonPuff
I am from the south , many generations southern and I am very glad the statues are coming down . Now if they would only tell the unslanted truth in alot of the schools there ...
The longer and farther I lived from the south in this life the more shocked I was at what we'd been taught . I graduated high school in 1980 so 60's and 70's . My kids went to school in the south also and it is getting better but there is still a ways to go in some schools .
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Originally Posted by BoBromhal
I grew up in NC, graduating HS in 1984. My wife, different part of NC, 1986. My kids - one has just graduated, the other is a rising 10th grader. None of us was ever taught - at home or especially in school - to glorify the South's cause or that we were a superior race to blacks.
I was over in Texas and we were taught that the north was bad in every conceivable way , that the war was not about slavery at all that was a lie perpetuated by the north . That they just decided to come to the south to take our houses and farms because of tax issues . That the cotton and maize farmers were not paying enough etc etc .. The slave issue was false pretense to come down and reek havoc .
That Lincoln liked having slaves and that the war was just a way to get re elected .
That black people in alot of cases liked to belong to white families.
That the south was misunderstood .
There was always this , see we are better now that we let black people ride on the bus with us or drink out of the fountain .
My first lesson about this as taught unintentionally by my black nanny . My mom handed me over to her when I came home from the hospital fall of 1962 until she died of cancer when was 10 . For long stretches I would live with she and her husband IN the black community and I started to learn how black people were really treated by whites in the south . Black people had raised my family for generations. In those decades in Texas white friends of my parents had no problem saying that that black people were of less class.
We had a PhD Head of a historical black college move into my childhood neighborhood , super fancy people , really upscale and cool and two of our neighbors brought around a PETITION to our doors demanding we sign this against letting them move into the neighborhood . This was the SEVENTIES !!!!!!!!! ( no surprise their children are Trump voters )
So I am glad your was different from mine but I hold the south accountable for a LOT of issues today.
Well I was there and knew quite a few. Most were glad we were there. The saddest part is we abandoned them.
Well then you took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, including that part which gives everyone, including Jane Fonda, the right to speak their minds. It is unpatriotic to declare otherwise.
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