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Until the vaccines are fully deployed, you will toe the line and do what you are told. It doesn’t matter what you want. It’s called recognizing reality and being an adult.
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Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Hopefully your conservative friends are not of the religious-mystic stripe that seem to be acting irrationally and ignoring science. If they are, you are being misled. Time to dump them and find conservative secular friends that understand and are conversant with reality.
Marc, I criticize you a lot. But I do want to give you praise you for these posts. They are right on target.
I don't believe "first come, first served." What I have a problem with is so much emphasis right now being put on people to get the vaccination. I don't want even one person who wants to get the vaccine, including myself, to wait one minute longer than neccesary waiting for it because of the emphasis on convincing people to take it.[and yes, I realize a shortage of the vaccine right now is the biggest obstacle to getting it]
I think anyone reluctant to receive the vaccine should be told "Fine. when and if you change your mind, just go to the END of the line. NEXT!
When there is a surplus of vaccine is when the persuassion attempts should begin.
I think anyone reluctant to receive the vaccine should be told "Fine. when and if you change your mind, just go to the END of the line. NEXT!
As a hardline conservative, I couldn't agree more with you. It's basically giving people choices, but each choice has consequences. It's good to offer people equitable opportunities--that is, highest-risk people go first, with every phase being "first come, first served". If they accept it, they get Covid protection and peace of mind. But if they reject it, that's on them; let them go to the back of the line and wait.
I work in medical logistics, which puts me squarely into my state's phase 1B, since I'm not considered a healthcare worker (they're phase 1A). My first vaccine dose is due on Monday, at a local Walgreen's pharmacy my employer partnered with, and I plan to get it. Considering how I socialize 2019-style, per the US Constitution, it's the morally right thing to do. Hopefully, the side effects won't be too weird.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 01-29-2021 at 07:28 PM..
My position is that we vote for the government we want and your side lost the election. Not just in 2020, but more importantly regularly since perhaps 1932.
You may believe its wrong for government to force you to help some groups. I don't agree its wrong if it was done in a free and fair election.
I understand your argument it's three wolves and one sheep voting on dinner. The wolf, in this analogy, may not understand that it's meal is not recurring. In our system the producer must be given some incentive to produce. Otherwise the producers make tax and regulation evasion an art form, or decide "what's in it for me"?
The Constitution was designed to work around this problem. While the French Revolution had not burst out in its full horror, the issue of mob rule was well known; fear of it was rife. Now, the issue is direct confiscation by mobs rather than indirect "lawful" taxation. When rioting mobs smashed storefronts in Minneapolis, New York, Portland and "occupied" part of Seattle as Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone ("CHAZ") and Capitol Hill Occupied Project ("CHOP") this past summer, business people are not going to replace the destroyed businesses. Even if the business-people wanted to, their lenders and insurers would think otherwise.
The municipal leaders, hungry for votes, tolerate the mayhem.
Thus, pure "majority" rule is usually unsustainable. Thus, both the "regulators" and "libertarians" are wrong. A balance is needed.
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Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
As a hardline conservative, I couldn't agree more with you. It's basically giving people choices, but each choice has consequences. It's good to offer people equitable opportunities--that is, highest-risk people go first, with every phase being "first come, first served". If they accept it, they get Covid protection and peace of mind. But if they reject it, that's on them; let them go to the back of the line and wait.
I work in medical logistics, which puts me squarely into my state's phase 1B, since I'm not considered a healthcare worker (they're phase 1A). My first vaccine dose is due on Monday, at a local Walgreen's pharmacy my employer partnered with, and I plan to get it. Considering how I socialize 2019-style, per the US Constitution, it's the morally right thing to do. Hopefully, the side effects won't be too weird.
As a hard-left liberal I couldn't agree with you more. The bleating for an "equitable rollout" means no rollout at all.
As a hard-left liberal I couldn't agree with you more. The bleating for an "equitable rollout" means no rollout at all.
Repped! In my own Illinois, a scarily large number of vaccine doses went to waste, because many phase 1A people (healthcare workers and nursing homes) declined the vaccines. And the leftist Illinois Department of Public Health was reluctant to repurpose them for people in phase 1B and vaccinate them sooner, because "it wasn't their turn yet" and "what if the refusers change their minds?". Due to the difficulty of storage and logistics, for the Pfizer vaccine especially, the vials spoiled. Whiskey-tango-foxtrot, right? After public pressure, a decision was made to redirect any unused doses in each phase to the next phase down, although anyone who didn't get the vaccine in their phase can still get it in the next phase, rather than at the very end.
To allay confusion and address possible questions, I'll clarify that my logistics job involves delivering technical equipment to hospitals, like security cameras and such. I don't handle vaccine vials in any capacity. But if IDPH says I can get my shot now, I'd be foolish to refuse it.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 01-29-2021 at 08:44 PM..
So individual rights and freedoms can be trampled upon as long as you are a member of the majority mob and can control the coercion and compulsion.
Apparently you know nothing about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, designed expressly to protect the few from the tyranny of the many. Progressives just suck on so many levels.
Plus, I don’t know what “side” you think I’m on but it’s not the Republican side. There is zero difference between a Republican and a Democrat. Both sides are statist enslaving tyrants, they just pick different victims. They are two sides of the same bad coin.
We do know the Constitution. Which includes the 16th Amendment and the General Welfare Clause, which, combined, mean that it is constitutional for the government to collect taxes to pay for improving the well-being of the people.
You want to pick and choose the parts of the Constitution that you like and ignore the rest. That isn't how it's supposed to work.
Let's look at the Bill or Rights. Life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness was taken by Jefferson from the VA Declaration of Rights. Written by George Mason, Section 1 reads:
Section 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
Mason is so widely regarded by conservatives that the Scalia Law School is at George Mason University. But even Mason recognized that the individual had an obligation to society. He served on the vestry of his church from 1757 to 1785. Established in 1642, the vestry system collected taxes, built roads, supported the poor and so forth. It was an unpaid obligation of the wealthy. Jefferson, Washington, the Lee's, the Randolph's, they all served on their vestries. And when the vestry system was abolished after the Revolution, the duties were absorbed by the Commonwealth. In short, even the most conservative of the Founders would have found the the idea of doing what one wants and no responsibility alien.
Virginia opened the first public psychiatric hospital in the British colonies in 1773. In the lead up to the Revolution, it was one thing the Crown and those who in two years would revolt could agree on. Those who supported the free hospital or who later served on its board was a whose who of Founders and Framers: Lee, Carter, Madison, Henry and so on.
The private system had failed (either letting the churches care for them or leasing them out for work or entertainment as one would an animal) and they were wandering around the colony. It would behoove us to learn from our predecessors. Our failure to care for the mentally ill has again left them wandering, in jails, homeless and hungry.
For those not at the top in terms of wealth and status, they too had civic duties: paying taxes, mustering monthly and physically working on the roads.
NO ONE is happy living like that. Neither were people happy with rationing or blacking their windows or having to get to an air raid shelter in the middle of the night, or sending their children to live in the relative safety of the countryside rather than in the cities during the years when Germany was bombing England. But the people of England understood what they needed to do, and they got through it.
I'm pretty sure being bombed is a much larger danger.
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Honestly, I often think that Americans are spoilt brats, with all the complaining one hears. Wearing a face-mask and social distancing are relatively minor inconveniences, compared to the genuine hardships that others have suffered during times of danger. WW II didn't last forever, and neither will this pandemic.
It would be amazing if masking and social-distancing were the only things being asked. While that may be true in some states, many others are asking for a heck of a lot more.
Honestly, I often think that Americans are spoilt brats, with all the complaining one hears. Wearing a face-mask and social distancing are relatively minor inconveniences, compared to the genuine hardships that others have suffered during times of danger. WW II didn't last forever, and neither will this pandemic.
It would be amazing if masking and social-distancing were the only things being asked. While that may be true in some states, many others are asking for a heck of a lot more.
I agree. I think that the closure of cultural institutions and restrictions on schooling that are short of closure, but crippling, seriously reduce the value of civilization. Religious and civic organizations are closed to in-person activities. This means speeches by notable people are confined to Zoom. There is no opportunity for interaction with new people. If I weren't happily married I'd be quite out of luck.
The depopulation of the urban core owing to the virtual elimination of restaurant dining, live theater and movies have left these places open only to criminals and people whose motives are not good. In New York City it feels as if one sees more homeless people than working people. It's a vicious cycle; working people are more opt to work from home or, in my case, a suburban office than to brave a trip into New York City. Grand Central Terminal (Grand Central Station is actually a post office) has extensive retail and dining facilities, most of which are take-out. Almost all of them are closed. The common seating area near these facilities are closed.
Masking and social distancing, then, are hardly the only things being asked. Basically, this is either lockdown or open-air imprisonment.
This is nothing new. Similar things happened during the 1918 pandemic and the polio epidemics. What happened in 1918 would be a recipe for civil unrest today. In VA, so many telephone operators were sick in 1918, the exchanges shut down. Of course we don't have exchanges, but imagine after a hurricane and there were not enough people to restore power. In VA, milk had to be rationed, so many farm laborers were sick, prisoners were used, today, prisons are hotbeds of the disease. They are still uncovering mass graves from 1918. We did not have that problem in VA, where the mass graves were dumping grounds, but from Newport News to western Henrico, the large cemeteries were put in to handle the overflow, some are buried without caskets since there weren't enough carpenters to build caskets.
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In my own Illinois, a scarily large number of vaccine doses went to waste, because many phase 1A people (healthcare workers and nursing homes) declined the vaccines. And the leftist Illinois Department of Public Health was reluctant to repurpose them for people in phase 1B and vaccinate them sooner, because "it wasn't their turn yet" and "what if the refusers change their minds?". Due to the difficulty of storage and logistics, for the Pfizer vaccine especially, the vials spoiled. Whiskey-tango-foxtrot, right? After public pressure, a decision was made to redirect any unused doses in each phase to the next phase down, although anyone who didn't get the vaccine in their phase can still get it in the next phase, rather than at the very end.
