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I don't think the level of proof will ever be enough for a substantial segment of the population. I hope its not enough of a group to prevent the country from reaching herd immunity, but I grow more concerned by the day.
Let's say you have two years of data that the vaccines are both safe and effective. As we grow closer to two years, the goal posts will be moved. You'll have people claiming that "five years data are needed". I also expect as time goes by to hear more and more attempts at revisionism. For example, there will be claims that the death toll from coronavirus was not really around 600,000. Instead it will be claimed that it was really much lower and the figures were exaggerated to justify expenditures on the vaccine or business closures that occurred. Various attempts will be made to divert the conversation to alleged inconsistencies by the CDC rather than on the simple fact this deadly disease claimed more American lives than all the major wars fought by the USA during the Twentieth Century did. Those people who want to believe the false claims will. I've spent more time than I should have at work trying to dissuade co-workers from believing this kind of nonsense. I have met with limited success.
Believe it or not, some of my employees and co-workers seem to have a sort of resentment against me that I got vaccinated and didn't get the virus like they did. Its just weird.
I agree that the level of proof will never be enough for some. Goalposts will continually be moved. Given that, I feel no obligation to those who can get vaccinated and choose not to. If they have consequences from that choice, I’m fine with them bearing them just like I’m fine with bearing the consequences of mine.
"If vaccine trials were required to demonstrate a large ARR, we wouldn't analyze the results until a large percentage of the enrolled patients had contracted the disease. For a 100% effective vaccine to demonstrate a 20% ARR, the trial would have to wait until 20% of the placebo arm had contracted the disease.
This would be counterproductive for public health, because the incidence of disease in the placebo arm of a vaccine trial will approximate the incidence in the population at large (if anything, it's likely to be lower, as vaccine trial participants tend to be health-conscious). The analysis would therefore be delayed until a large share of the general population had already contracted the disease.
It would essentially prevent vaccines from ever being approved in time to be useful."
The epically disastrous low-fat diet was also pushed before the science was in.
Giving out antibiotics like candy--oops, shouldn't have been doing that.
Statins for all--oops, statins cause diabetes.
Strict bed rest for heart attack patients--oops, not good.
Long-term PPI use--oops, that can lead to bone fractures.
So to all who took this brand-new vaccine, I hope it's safe. Those claiming to be frightened can stay home like they've been haranguing everyone else to do for the past year.
It seems like many young people (and a few older ones) have any number of unsupported excuses for not getting the vaccine. They willfully leave themselves and others like them, subject to Covid infection --- endangering both themselves and others. (It seems ironic that governments have virtually shut-down many public arenas -in their efforts to prevent the spread of the virus, but, seem helpless to require compliance with prevention steps (ie; vaccine).
Because of the horrific global and national cost of this virus (both human and financial), it seems like there should be a means to demand people prove they have been vaccinated before entering any number of public venues. This would require some type readily presentable evidence that an individual had been vaccinated, such as a chip card with photo ID. Of course, this would be difficult to regulate and would require another level of bureaucracy -- plus has numerous 'freedom-restricting' implications.
These cards could/would be inserted in pass machines when entering theaters, arenas, entertainment venues, public buildings, etc. -- This could be construed as an Orwellian approach - and could be misused in many ways - perhaps making virus authentication more problematic than the virus itself?? [Sidelight: Will this be how the 'mark of the beast' will be used in the End-Times' to keep those without the 'mark' from buying or selling??]- (Rev. 13)
Similar parallels already exist. People are not allowed to: (1)drive (w/o a license), (2) drink (w/o valid age certification), (3) travel to other countries w/o vaccination certification and verified passport (4) enter school/s as students w/o vaccination certifications, (5) Enter many buildings or areas without a verified pass (airports, businesses, employee areas, etc.. (and on and on).
Maybe you think people should wear yellow armbands if they arent vaccinated? Just so you can tell them from afar?
Maybe you think people should wear yellow armbands if they arent vaccinated? Just so you can tell them from afar?
That would actually be an interesting compromise position between requiring vs. not requiring people to be vaccinated. You do not have to get the vaccine, but you have to disclose your "risky" status so that others (esp. immunocompromised) can make an informed decision to avoid you or not. And it should be temporary, until the level of infection in the community drops to the point that even the unvaccinated are "safe".
If people who won't get vaccinated are given the same ethical treatment as people who choose not to wear a seat belt, then there still exists some residual duty to protect them, just as you are still liable for the injuries in an accident even if the victim chose not to wear a seat belt. Yet, at some point, we have to move on, the vaccine skeptics shouldn't be allowed to hold the vaccinated hostage to an unlimited duration of potential restrictions.
Well, no, because the CDC says masking and social distancing work.
I have no duty to protect you if you don't want to get vaccinated and don't want to wear a mask or social distance. That person assumes the risk, not me.
In any event, that's irrelevant, since you could never trace STUPID-19 to me.
Unless you can prove I actually gave you STUPID-19 you got nothing.
I'm fully vaccinated and carry a mask with me if I need it to enter a public place or a store. Otherwise, I am functioning at about 80% of normal. I avoid indoor restaurant table seating if I can and I can't sit at a bar based on health current restrictions. I still avoid large crowds. I don't travel much and never fly unless there is no other option. I prefer road trips and Amtrak. Wearing a mask at Home Depot or the grocery store is no great hardship.
If an avid anti-vaccination dope gets sick from Covid and lands in the hospital they should not be covered by health insurance and should be charged a hefty surcharge on their bill. There are consequences for stupidity. If you want to bankrupt your family then don't get vaccinated and pretend you are superman.
We have had 599,982 deaths from Covid as of today in the US.
If an avid anti-vaccination dope gets sick from Covid and lands in the hospital they should not be covered by health insurance and should be charged a hefty surcharge on their bill. There are consequences for stupidity. If you want to bankrupt your family then don't get vaccinated and pretend you are superman.
For a virus that has a 1% death rate? Insanity?
If we want to impose the rule that our health insurance can have surcharges for not "acting right" then I am all for it... car accidents, surcharge, drug overdose, surcharge, diabetes treatments, surcharge... my rates will fall so much I will be rich!
If an avid anti-vaccination dope gets sick from Covid and lands in the hospital they should not be covered by health insurance and should be charged a hefty surcharge on their bill. There are consequences for stupidity. If you want to bankrupt your family then don't get vaccinated and pretend you are superman.
I understand the sentiment behind this idea and am somewhat sympathetic.
But people have been willingly and in most cases, knowingly, doing stupid things that within a few short weeks cause their death. I have been wondering for months now why we still have people dying from COVID-19 here in Arizona. It's not a shortage of available information. If you don't know how to avoid getting infected, you're just not paying attention or are one of those cranks who thinks it's all a hoax. If you want a vaccination but can't figure out how to get one, there are agencies that will help. You probably have neighbors that would gladly drive you to the pharmacy to get your shot(s).
My point is we already pay the bills for people who act stupidly. I think that ship has sailed.
Even a 1% death rate for a virus (and, in some countries, the death rate has been much higher) amounts to an alarming number of deaths when taking into account how quickly this virus has spread throughout the world, and the actual numbers that have died.
We're not talking about a few hundred deaths here. We are talking about thousands who have died. Here in the U.S. alone, nearly 600,000 people have died of COVID-19. Thousands have survived but are left with disabilities from the virus. I personally have neighbors in whose household both the husband and adult son died from the virus. I know of another member of this forum whose sister barely survived, but she has had to be hospitalized in intensive care and kept on oxygen support for weeks.
The death rate for COVID-19 is already 6 times that of the death rate for various annual flu strains. Additionally, there are members of our society who are more vulnerable to the virus than others. Obviously, it's these at-risk individuals who are going to have a far greater possibility of succumbing to the virus than others might. That doesn't lessen the moral responsibility that the rest of us have to others, despite having dodged a bullet as far as contracting this virus is concerned.
Let's say you have two years of data that the vaccines are both safe and effective. As we grow closer to two years, the goal posts will be moved. You'll have people claiming that "five years data are needed". I also expect as time goes by to hear more and more attempts at revisionism. ...
The goal-posts have been moved by both sides, and doubtless this will continue.
On the one side, recall that we went from "flattening the curve" to keeping hospitals from getting overwhelmed to whatever was the subsequent standard from success. And countries such as New Zealand aimed for nothing less than outright eradication of the virus. No matter how far the daily death-count will fall, it can always fall further, until reaching outright zero; and even then, it can flare up again. The goal-post will always get moved.
On the opposing side, however much history and statistics come to stand behind the vaccines, skepticism will always find a foothold. Side-effects may be dormant for decades, before manifesting themselves. New virus variants may come to be impervious to the virus. And so on.
Call me morbid, or mordant, but the only escape from the malaise is to recognize that ultimately we're all going to die. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 70 years... but it is inevitable. Along the way, we can choose to be timid and skittish, or to go about the remainder of our lives in relative peace. We can choose to dwell on any conceivable disaster, or or abide such possibility and attempt to enjoy however many years we have remaining. How are we going to choose?
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