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Therefore your topic has nothing to do with the present question.
Thank you, but I'll decide if my posts are relevant for now. Your views are simply the reflection of your bias, pretty normal actually, but in the minds of those in the pro life camp there is a common notion that their bias should become law. And not just a law that provides for the collective benefit, but moreover, a law or laws that force others to do as you think they SHOULD do. The true beneficiary being those who want to restrict the others freedom.
No one has been forced to have an abortion, even though there are plenty of people who would love to have that choice be in the realm of our courts. I've known plenty of people who were advocating for a sterilization and abortion directive to rein in population on the welfare rolls. So this issue isn't just a question of when life begins, nor is it an issue that can realistically be resolved by the courts, our freedom is acknowledged in constitutional proclamations not subject to the bias of individual views to the contrary.
In short, it's none of our collective business, and it should be left to stand as one of those freedoms that set the US apart from other less progressive governments. There is a lot of US law that I'm not in total agreement with, there are many religious edicts I can't accept.
But I know that is also the case for a lot of other people who don't agree with me and readily accept those things that I find repugnant, in any case we should all understand that we don't have to have the courts decide every aspect of our lives, that is what real freedom connotes. We'll see just how free we are when this issue comes before the courts, and once again, Americans will decide whether we want freedom from religion, or not.
As a side note: Allowing the states to decide this matter is just one more divisive political tool by those who want that division to be expanded, one more attempt to put us in our own little narrow trenches wherein we will choose sides in a terrible blue/red state conflict. It won't deter abortion but will make it more difficult for some to have those freedoms we once thought were offered to all. The timing of this revisiting the abortion issue is more than a coincidence.
I think this point ignores the fact that in most polls ~85% of physicians say they feel abortions should be available and not banned. Abortions are outside the scope of practice for most physicians, and even if you limit the discussion to OB/GYNs, many of them subspecialize in other areas like gynecologic oncology or menopause. Then there are the many, many OB/GYNs who face roadblocks like being unable to obtain affordable malpractice coverage for abortions, or who practice at hospitals where abortions are banned (i.e. every Catholic hospital in America), or whose states have criminalized abortions. Big reasons are the intimidation factor, threat of arrest and loss of one's career, and death threats to the physician and his family.
Conscientious objection is legit, but it's not the driving factor in the declining numbers of physicians available to perform abortions.
I wasn't "ignoring" any facts or polls. Again, please keep the conversations in this forum civil and on an even keel and refrain from the snark so popular on P&OC. Mine was simply a statement of opinion that stands on its own in response to a similar opinion by another poster. A doctor who does not want to perform abortions at any given point should not be forced to do so. Thank you.
That stated, you do make a completely-different point about some doctors who would perform abortions not being able to by virtue of fear of litigation or because their employer forbids it. I think that's on the doctors' consciences or risk tolerance and a decision they have to make for themselves. Many years ago, my OB/GYN sent my brother's drug-addicted pregnant wife to a facility that specializes in such high-risk pregnancies when she came to see him and started off complaining of pain to get opioids. (My niece is healthy and turned 38 yesterday.) Similarly, a doctor who refrains from performing an abortion can make a referral, or simply say, "I do not perform those services. You will have to find another provider."
I wasn't "ignoring" any facts or polls. Again, please keep the conversations in this forum civil and on an even keel and refrain from the snark so popular on P&OC. Mine was simply a statement of opinion that stands on its own in response to a similar opinion by another poster. A doctor who does not want to perform abortions at any given point should not be forced to do so. Thank you.
That stated, you do make a completely-different point about some doctors who would perform abortions not being able to by virtue of fear of litigation or because their employer forbids it. I think that's on the doctors' consciences or risk tolerance and a decision they have to make for themselves. Many years ago, my OB/GYN sent my brother's drug-addicted pregnant wife to a facility that specializes in such high-risk pregnancies when she came to see him and started off complaining of pain to get opioids. (My niece is healthy and turned 38 yesterday.) Similarly, a doctor who refrains from performing an abortion can make a referral, or simply say, "I do not perform those services. You will have to find another provider."
It can be argued the doctor went into that profession, knowing what comes with the occupation. Would be nice if we all could discard parts of your job we don’t like doing. I remember this same argument in the news for Pharmacist who were refusing to provide abortion and other types of drugs. When selecting a profession, along with interest and abilities one should also consider values. Never go into a profession that doesn't align with values. It's like a conscientious objector joining the military.
It can be argued the doctor went into that profession, knowing what comes with the occupation. Would be nice if we all could discard parts of your job we don’t like doing. I remember this same argument in the news for Pharmacist who were refusing to provide abortion and other types of drugs. When selecting a profession, along with interest and abilities one should also consider values. Never go into a profession that doesn't align with values. It's like a conscientious objector joining the military.
Sometimes a physician will select a profession and be fine, even happy with performing abortions because they are pro abortion rights and believe it’s the right thing to do but have a change of mind and heart somewhere along the way and start to see things differently. Dr Anthony Levatino comes to mind as one.
People’s views on abortion can change. I know mine have.
As far as the question of the cutoff point, I would be fine with a compromise at maybe around the time of fetal viability, or 24 weeks, for abortion on demand for any reason, with total autonomy and discreet medical privacy before that point, and, abortion still possible after that point (viability) on a case by case basis, if it's a matter of health. I think my state of Washington's policy is pretty near perfect, actually (grabbed this summary from somewhere):
"Washington abortion laws state that abortion is legal prior to fetal viability or if the mother's life or health is at risk after viability. The procedure must be done by a licensed physician in a hospital if surgical. Minors are not required to receive consent or give notice to have the procedure done."
I mean, yeah, that should be the case for all 50 states. After the 6 month mark, it's viable in that it could live, so if you decide you don't want the baby (which could be for any number of good reasons, so no shame in that at all), then adoption should be the course of action at that point.
I wasn't "ignoring" any facts or polls. Again, please keep the conversations in this forum civil and on an even keel and refrain from the snark so popular on P&OC. Mine was simply a statement of opinion that stands on its own in response to a similar opinion by another poster. A doctor who does not want to perform abortions at any given point should not be forced to do so. Thank you.
That stated, you do make a completely-different point about some doctors who would perform abortions not being able to by virtue of fear of litigation or because their employer forbids it. I think that's on the doctors' consciences or risk tolerance and a decision they have to make for themselves. Many years ago, my OB/GYN sent my brother's drug-addicted pregnant wife to a facility that specializes in such high-risk pregnancies when she came to see him and started off complaining of pain to get opioids. (My niece is healthy and turned 38 yesterday.) Similarly, a doctor who refrains from performing an abortion can make a referral, or simply say, "I do not perform those services. You will have to find another provider."
Sorry, fixed it so it was clearer what I was responding to.
People’s views on abortion can change. I know mine have.
Compared to 20 or 30 years ago, a lot more people today are knowledgeable about fetal development inside of a woman's womb, thanks to advances in technology. I also credit the easy access of such information over the internet. The big surprise to most people, I think, is just how quickly a fetus develops and takes on the characteristics of a human.
The moral question is whether our society will continue to tolerate ending the life a fully-developed fetus that looks and acts like a human baby, for all practical purposes. It is also worth noting that the laws of 38 states recognize fetal homicide.
My church teaches that Soul-life begins at birth, because they found Bible verses that say so.
A few times I have known young ladies in the church who found they were pregnant and suddenly went into crisis mode. Each time, I have made the offer to drive them to a clinic, to hold their hand and console them after the procedure.
My daughter-in-law was pregnant when the doctors noticed on the ultra-sound that the fetus had no detectable brain. I thought that was a good example of when to get an abortion. But she feels strongly against abortions, so she decided to carry to term. Today my grandson has cerebral palsy. At five years old, he can not move his eyes, lift his head, or control any muscles. Every week he gets bigger and heavier. Raising a child like that is a huge burden to anyone. He has just the bare minimum amount of brain to keep his heart beating and his lungs breathing.
I just googled what a baby of 8 weeks old in the womb looks like and it looks nothing like the picture by OP where it looks like some kind of bug. The baby is clearly a child. What else would it be? Women don't give birth to hamsters.
Perhaps your picture was 8 weeks development, that is 8 weeks post-fertilization.
My picture was "8 weeks pregnant," which is 8 weeks after Last Menstrual Period, which is 6 weeks development/post-fertilization.
I didn't pick a photo that looks like a "bug" intentionally. That's just what the embryo looks like at 8 weeks after LMP. It is about a half inch long at that point.
It can be argued the doctor went into that profession, knowing what comes with the occupation. Would be nice if we all could discard parts of your job we don’t like doing. I remember this same argument in the news for Pharmacist who were refusing to provide abortion and other types of drugs. When selecting a profession, along with interest and abilities one should also consider values. Never go into a profession that doesn't align with values. It's like a conscientious objector joining the military.
Not true. See my anecdote about my OB/GYN refusing to take my drug-addicted SIL as a patient. A doctor has a choice of specialties. An ENT specialist or a podiatrist or an oncologist is not likely going to be asked to perform an abortion.
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