Death With Dignity (DWD) and Non-Terminal Issues (legal, lawyer, healthcare)
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I am starting this thread with a quote from another Great Debates thread, since it was veering badly off-topic. However, there is much good food for thought here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east
Most certainly food for thought.
Here's a story from 2018 about a 104-year-old man, David Goodall, who had outlived all his peers, wasn't terminal, but did not enjoy the grind of living at 104 and wanted to die peacefully. So he went to Switzerland where, under some circumstances, one may receive assisted-suicide. He went blissfully to sleep as Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" played in the background. ************
This practice should be allowed within our medical business, with safeguards to assure it is used in a totally voluntary manner.
No law that exists now or is likely to be enacted addresses non-terminal situations that may, upon mature consideration, warrant a person contemplating his own death. In no way do I advocate "permanent solutions for temporary problems" so this post is not aimed at teenagers or young adults who feel that their first breakup of a relationship means they'll never love or live again.
David Goodall, who you discussed on Free Market Principle to Lower healthcare in US, loosen Medicial Licensing requirements would not be eligible for DWD under Canadian or any U.S. state laws. Another example. My childhood acquaintance (I would not call him a friend) "Howard" had a dental procedure in 2001 that went badly awry. He had intermittent severe pain from the time of the procedure till July 2012, when he killed himself by self-poisoning in Los Angeles, where he lived. Our close mutual friend, Norman, traveled from Denver to LA to be with him but for obvious reasons kept his role limited. He also would not have qualified. In neither Goodall's nor Howard's case was death expected within six months and no doctor in his right mind would so certify. Both, however, correctly believed they needed to die. Objectively, many would likely have agreed.
DWD also does not take into account the issue of life spans outliving savings, incomes and living (and not demented) friends. I am personally worried about this. I do not have a good handle on my genetics since my Dad died at 47 of rectal cancer, whose origins do not apply to me. My mother died at 81 but almost everyone else in her family survived into their 90's (one still alive). As far as finances go mine are better than average. I hope to keep working till about 80 or maybe a bit longer. My current work colleagues, though, probably won't so I may lose my job sooner. Between my personal savings and my wife's bequest (that's a complex issue) I probably have eight to ten years socked away.
So, life after 90 is foreseeable but does not look appetizing. My $0.02.
I often think back to the old Charlton Heston film "Soylent Green". In it a character played by an old Edward G. Robinson decides it is time to 'check out'. He goes to a beautiful building dedicated to voluntary euthanasia. It is a rather beautiful scenario, no pain. That's the way I think it should be. We should be in charge of our own bodies once we are adults.
I don't think there should be any limits on it, or at most some counseling before a final decision is made. Only we know how we feel physically and emotionally.
Good thread, let's all have at it in a good solid discussion regarding our End of Life (EOL) choices, and yes, it should be OUR choice, not the government's, not the doctor's, not the lawyer's, and certainly not religion's choice.
Quality of life (QOL), though hard to quantify and define, is a valid consideration during our lifetime and especially if one becomes superannuated like Mr. Goodall. You know QOL when you have, and you know it when you don't. I'm a bit busy today so I'll come back at it when things settle down.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 04-24-2023 at 11:07 AM..
My pops is closing in on 103. He is in good spirts when he sees us. He can't hear, vision is deteriorating, and there are many other medical issues. What if he wasn't in good spirts and was miserable? I would want him to have the ability to end the suffering in a pleasant way. I see nothing wrong with competent adults deciding it is their time to go. I'd be for End of Life centers where people can go through the dying process in a timely way of their choosing. I wouldn't want this to be a big mainstream thing though. Those suffering from terminal illnesses should be able to sidestep the last few months of what is often misery and be remembered in a better state.
Good thread, let's all have at it in a good solid discussion regarding our End of Life (EOL) choices, and yes, it should be OUR choice, not the government's, not the doctor's, not the lawyer's, and certainly not religion's choice.
Quality of life (QOL), though hard to quantify and define, is a valid consideration during our lifetime and especially if one becomes superannuated like Mr. Goodall. You know QOL when you have, and you know it when you don't. I'm a bit busy today so I'll come back at it when things settle down.
On the other hand, there is the problem of the "jilted teenager" to consider. And, a bit of personal disclosure on my part.
In March 1977, I got a really bad cold. I started taking Tylenol with Codeine to suppress the cough. Some of the people on my dorm floor thought that was really funny. One of them even "pennied me in." My class attendance suffered and soon I realized that I was on the verge of flunking out. In addition, I had a minor auto accident just before Pesach. Life was, in short, spiraling down. I did contemplate suicide at age 20. I was walking back and forth on the Thurston Avenue bridge separating North Campus from the rest of Cornell. I don't know for sure that I would have jumped.
In any case I was confined to the infirmary for a day, when my mother and stepfather came to fetch me. After seeing a psychiatrist (friend of the family) I was cleared to return, now no longer soggy with Codeine laced Tylenol, incompleted (and finished during the summer) one course, and had better than passable grades for the remaining courses.
So I don't want to go too heavy on this issue; there are times it's right, but not many, until old age or serious illness or perpetual pain.
I support assisted suicide, and people making a conscious, rational choice to end their own life, for whatever reasons they see as justifying it. Surely that is definitely a person's right.
However, I don't support the 25,000 gun suicides a year in this country. Because, in a lot of those cases, it was probably someone in an overwhelming moment of depression, that really just needed help from someone.
Suicide should be legal and permitted, but that's not to say it should be easy and convenient. I think more often than not, especially with the gun suicides, it's not a rational act. But, in some cases it's definitely very rational. It's not black and white.
FWIW Voluntary Assisted Dying laws have now been passed in all Australian states, but will not start operating here in NSW until November. The details vary a lot between states because it is such a complex area.
Obviously already many people choose to discontinue treatment such as dialysis and even refuse food and water.
It’s super sad, and unnecessarily so, when some responsible people are forced to have greater pain even for a short time in order to not have prolonged physical suffering.
I support assisted suicide, and people making a conscious, rational choice to end their own life, for whatever reasons they see as justifying it. Surely that is definitely a person's right.
However, I don't support the 25,000 gun suicides a year in this country. Because, in a lot of those cases, it was probably someone in an overwhelming moment of depression, that really just needed help from someone.
Suicide should be legal and permitted, but that's not to say it should be easy and convenient. I think more often than not, especially with the gun suicides, it's not a rational act. But, in some cases it's definitely very rational. It's not black and white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarisaAnna
FWIW Voluntary Assisted Dying laws have now been passed in all AustrTalian states, but will not start operating here in NSW until November. The details vary a lot between states because it is such a complex area.
Obviously already many people choose to discontinue treatment such as dialysis and even refuse food and water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4horses
It’s super sad, and unnecessarily so, when some responsible people are forced to have greater pain even for a short time in order to not have prolonged physical suffering.
These laws are nice but it's sort of like generals fighting the last war. Looming is the problem of people living into their 90's or even low 100's, not having much to do and not having much income to do much of anything with. We need to look globally at the issue of making suicide more permissible, and at the same to not enabling it for anxious college students or jilted young lovers, link back to Death With Dignity (DWD) and Non-Terminal Issues.
First we have to accept the premise that it is not irrational to want to die.
If we don't accept this premise, we are caught in a Catch-22 in that people who want to die are crazy and if they are crazy, they can't make a rational decision. So, we have to accept that wanting to die can be a rational choice that someone can effectuate.
Watching someone die in hospice care at home was the worst experience of my life. No hydration; no nutrition. Just a slow wasting away. Every day worse than the one before. Life slowly ebbing away.
I do not want to subject my family to that experience.
Passively dying is not better than pro-actively dying. It is seriously worse.
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