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1 in 500 circumcisions is botched. Mistakes happen so frequently because it is a completely uneccesary and dangerous procedure. These mistakes are under reported because they typically are not realized until sexual activity begins, which is at least 15 to 20 years after the mutilation took place.
Texas businessman Dean Pisani recently pledged $1 million to Intact America because, he said, he and his wife were pressured in 1999 by a physician at Northwestern Memorial Hospital to circumcise their first child, a boy. They refused.
“She made us feel very guilty about our decision,” said Pisani, who at the time was living in Chicago’s Lakeview neighborhood. “She said some things that were inappropriate at the time, really putting on pressure.”
During his wife’s 48-hour hospital stay, three other doctors asked why the baby was still intact, he said.
This article is related to uninary tract infection and cicumcision but it has the statistic there.
They calculate that "the number-needed-to-treat to prevent one urinary tract infection is 111" in normal boys. Also, they add, circumcision is associated with a 2 percent to 10 percent complication rate.
WOW, 2-10% chance of some sort of complication!? Let me see...there is a 2-4% chance of a women rupturing during a VBAC (.08% chance if no induction drugs are given) but they INSIST on that procedure (though regardless of the 2% risk of other problems with c-section) because of that...so its it contradictory that they would risk that 2% for a circumcision? A bit troubling if you ask me.
2% chance REALLY means when you are sitting there thinking about it with your newborn son in your arms, "Ok, the studies show that for every 50 cicumcisions my doctor does, he'll get it messed up once."
10% chance...that is HUGE, one out of every ten!?
And there is no harm in circumcision. Nope. Not at all.
I read the rest of the article and the opposing view believes that the risk for newborns is actually .02-.06%. Still...even at 1 in every 200 to 1 in every 400 is still a higher chance than I want to take, and I think most parents wouldn't risk it if they realized nearly all those "issues" with an intact penis are easily prevented with proper hygiene.
Thanks for providing all the links that prove your claim.
You unable to use google?
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Originally Posted by 2mares
I didnt post any links.
What you posted is not proof circumcision is harmful. Law suits are not proof that this procedure is harmful. Sounds like many of these are frivoulous.
There is always risk in ANY MEDICAL PROCEDURE. Would you say 98% of circumcisions were successful? Do you feel that the majority of men are satisfyed with the being circumcised or not?
How many boys loose their penis from an infection that could have been prevented with circumcision, or proper hygiene?
My bet is none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
You are listing various law suits based on either surgical negligence or someone feeling they had been wronged due to having the procedure done as proof that it is a harmful procdure. Harmful and unnecessary are not the same.
I babysat for a toddler that had two thumbs on each hand. His mother decided to have the extra thumbs removed. It was an unnecessary procedure. There were risks involved. Seems like the same debate to me. Should she have the right to choose this for him? Was it mutilation? Was it painful for the baby?
You do not have to take the risk. Circumcision is not mandatory. Im not sure how they circumcised your son without your consent. I had to sign a paper giving my permission. Same as with any procedure performed on me or my children.
That's a bs argument. You genitals isn't a abnormal mutation. If she waned, all the babies thumbs to be chopped off, its her choice right? RIGHT?
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Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
No baby boy in the United States is circumcised without parental consent. It has been this way for decades.
How about the baby boys consent!
I find it hard to believe that people can support the banning of female genital mutilation, but as soon as someone wants to mutilate a male genitals, it becomes "the parents choice".
Don't give me they are different. It is against the law to do any cutting, even if it was the equivalent to male genital mutilation. (removal of the citrus hood, and skin around the vagina).
It is one of the most irrational actions I have seen in the modern world.
How many boys loose their penis from an infection that could have been prevented with circumcision, or proper hygiene?
My bet is none.
That's a bs argument. You genitals isn't a abnormal mutation. If she waned, all the babies thumbs to be chopped off, its her choice right? RIGHT?
How about the baby boys consent!
I find it hard to believe that people can support the banning of female genital mutilation, but as soon as someone wants to mutilate a male genitals, it becomes "the parents choice".
Don't give me they are different. It is against the law to do any cutting, even if it was the equivalent to male genital mutilation. (removal of the citrus hood, and skin around the vagina).
It is one of the most irrational actions I have seen in the modern world.
That is one of the joys of living in the US. Most other civilized countries are further ahead then we are in this subject. It reminds of a documentary I watched where the point was that the medical companies were using TV commercials and other advertisments to make us a country of hypochondriacs. It turned out New Zealand and the US were the only countries without laws prohibiting this, and pointing out that New Zealand was outlawing it as well. Money speaks.
That is one of the joys of living in the US. Most other civilized countries are further ahead then we are in this subject. It reminds of a documentary I watched where the point was that the medical companies were using TV commercials and other advertisments to make us a country of hypochondriacs. It turned out New Zealand and the US were the only countries without laws prohibiting this, and pointing out that New Zealand was outlawing it as well. Money speaks.
True, genital mutilation is a multimillion dollar industry.
Ok, so trying to find out how must doctors make anually on circumcision led me to this site.
The Daily Orange (http://www.dailyorange.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=4baf46ae-1b51-40ed-ba16-23645798c1a3 - broken link)
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Hospitals and doctors make a fortune from this surgery as it is a multi-million dollar industry. The foreskin is highly sought-after by the biomedical industry as it is made up of vast amounts of sensory nerves that contribute to enhanced sexual pleasure.
Here is another that makes reference to that and it has quite a few other links.
I had ample sexual experience, and I was quite happy as an intact male,” says Rick Thomas, who was circumcised on advice of his doctor at age 26. “After my circumcision, that pleasure was utterly gone. On a scale of 10, the uncircumcised penis experiences pleasure of at least 11 or 12; the circumcised penis is lucky to get to 3. If men who were circumcised at birth knew the loss of pleasure they would experience, they would storm the hospitals and not permit their sons to undergo this.”
and
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“You’re more likely to be struck by lightning than to suffer from penile cancer,” counters Dr. Van Howe. “Japan, Norway, Finland, and Denmark all have lower rates than the United States, and they don’t circumcise their boys.”
And when I didn't think it could get any more disgusting....
Quote:
Recreational/Erotic/Fetish Circumcision
would like to circumcise an adult. I have a fantasy to circumcise a guy who lost his foreskin in a bet ... or to forcefully circumcise a man. Any way to get the Tara Klamps in the States? Any uncut willing to let me circumcise him? I would one day like to have a jar full of foreskins I circumcised off guys.
Ok, so finally to the links about foreskins for sale.
Quote:
Foreskins For Sale
"Parents should be wary of anyone who tries to retract their child's foreskin, and especially wary of anyone who wants to cut it off. Human foreskins are in great demand for any number of commercial enterprises, and the marketing of purloined baby foreskins is a multimillion-dollar-a-year industry."
WHY??? you ask....
Quote:
The after market for human foreskin is where the real money is made. Foreskins are sold to biomedical companies, which use them in the manufacture of insulin. They're also sold to middlemen, who package them for sale to research companies that in turn use them for biochemical analysis. Corporations such as Advanced Tissue Sciences (ATS), Organogenesis, BioSurface Technology, Genzyme, and Ortec International are taking cells from amputated foreskins and experimenting with artificial skin. Products like Dermagraft-TC, which sells for about $3,000 per square foot, are grown from the cells in infant foreskins and used as a temporary wound covering for burn patients. One foreskin contains enough genetic material to grow 250,000 square feet of skin.
Is this why we are all over Africa suddenly mass circumcisizing the less educated on the ruse that it will prevent AIDS??? (again...education over mutilation)
I'm typing and quoting as I skim the article and this little tidbit just grabbed my attention:
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One educated nurse from San Antonio told me they have to save infants' amputated foreskins because the hospital's Department of Oral Surgery uses them for reconstructive surgery of the inner lining of the mouth!
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NOCIRC's attorney was given just five minutes to speak to the Committee in defense of the babies whose foreskins are cut off a marketed without their consent.
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How much does one infant foreskin sell for? (I received an email January 1997 from someone who prefers to remain anonymous who said that the going rate for infant foreskins at a large hospital in the greater San Diego area was $35 each -- and that "ethical" doctors deducted that amount from their circumcision fees.)
Ok, if there are 3,000 circumcision done each day in the US, that equals...$105,000 each year. Times that by 365 days and we have.....$38,325,000 each year. Now how much do we pay them to cut them off before they run off and make more profit....if we go with $300 per circ....that is $900,000 per day. Again, times 365 that equals, $328,500,000 anually. Ok, let us add those two together....$366,825,000 EVERY year!
BUT WAIT! 1 in every 500 equals six messed up circumcisions every day in the US. That is 2,190 messed up circumcisions each year. How much do they make fixing them? I bet alot more than they were paid to do the circumcision PLUS the $35 they sold it for.
Excluding those, let me see....companies turn around and make 250,000 square feet of skin from it at $3,000 per square foot. For those that don't know the math....that is $750,000,000 per foreskin. Each day that makes some company, $2,250,000,000,000. Each year that makes them....$821,250,000,000,000.
That is BIG money. To scale it down to the little infant in YOUR arms.
First you pay the doctor.............$300
He sells it for .............................$35
The later turn around is...$750,000,000
The total made..............$750,000,335
That is expoiting your child. Why does your child not get a single penny of this? I guess he can when he grows up and sues the hospital. But by the time he is 18 the hospital will already have made...$6,602,850,000 (and some other companies a maximum potential of $14,784,500,000, 000, 000) so whatever your son is awarded will be a drop in the bucket to them. I guarantee that the will never even get close to what it eventually sold for.
(Now that makes me wonder about cord blood....I always thought myself that it all those T cells in the cord blood might actually help the child ward of things like cancer if allowed to naturaly enter the body so I opted out on cord clamping with my sons, though for the first the doctor did it covertly anyhow and was visibly livid when it did not get him much blood.)
Last edited by flik_becky; 10-09-2009 at 12:05 AM..
I thought this was a debate? Where did the pro-circ side go?
Aren't you even going to come out and say that 14 something quazillion dollars is OBVIOUSLY an highly inflated number since the foreskins are sold to multiple companies and we don't know how much they make from one? Something? Or are you attempting to gather evidence to prove otherwise? I doubt that with the pro-circ side's reputation throughout this thread.
I have to admit I was quite shocked since this was the first I saw of this.
Are you still going with the "It's my right!" stance? Or might you now add..."Take the foreskin home with you in a ziplock baggy under the ruse that is for some bizzare religous ritual and then bury it to prevent it from happening?"
Remember what I was saying about cord blood? I came across this site: Selling Placentas and Cord Stem Cell Blood without informed consent. (http://www.lotusbirth.com/doc/FEB2003Lotusbirth-329.htm - broken link)
and here is what they say:
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These companies in possession of human organ and blood did not have your informed consent to have the organ and blood tissues. The medical persons received, in most instances, personal gain by selling the blood products taken from the placenta and the placenta, itself. It was also all done in secret and that is breach of trust. It is said to find stem cells of a particular ethnic group or blood type, is as high as $25,000 is paid to the searcher and/or the finder of such desired organ transplants and/or blood types.
NO WONDER my doctor seemed so livid...I have AB negative blood. Only 1% of US citizens have this blood type. To think the doctor may have been paid twice the total costs of the birth of my second child. That is nuts!
editing to say: At this rate, if given the right to your own organ, you could sell your placenta/cord blood to pay for the birth itself AND have a little left over to enjoy maternity/paternity leave.
I find it quite interesting that this is such a lengthy thread, which is perhaps an indicator that our society is growing more open to questioning the issue of infant circumcision. Forgive me if I am repeating knowledge that was shared in the previous 43 pages...Circumcision in the United States is a product of the Victorian Era. A prominent doctor of that time period, John Harvey Kellogg, recommended circumcision (in addition to eating Kellogg's Cornflakes) as a cure for "self-abuse,"(aka masturbation). This practice has remained in American culture since that time period. England experienced a similar trend during the Victorian era, but later saw the practice decline significantly with the introduction of an NHS that did not pay for it.
I personally don't think it is a necessary practice.
I just want to add to any boys/teenagers reading this thread who are uncircumcised and are worried it will effect their sex life: it won't if you don't let it. As being born to two Eastern European immigrants I was never circumcised and growing up in the midwest (Detroit) I was definitely a minority. However, I can't say I remember it affecting my sex life at all. There is no time I got a girl into my bedroom and she got out when she realized I wasn't circumcised. The worst I ever got was a girl saying kinda shocked the obvious which I brushed off and we ended up getting down to business.
Its true that American girls have a preference, but it matters very little once you get them into the bedroom. But European women are the opposite, they prefer uncircumcised. Just like in America you may hear bad nicknames like 'anteater' for uncircumcised in Europe I heard many women refer to circumcised as a 'funny earthworm.'
Anyways, I don't think parents should have the right to permenantly alter their babies body unless its a medical necessity. If the kid decides later he wants to be circumcised then all means but what is the point in getting him circumcised right off the bat?
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