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1. Female genital mutilation and circumcision are NOT the same thing.
Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.
The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. - Yet this seems to be the only thing that people seem to disagree about when it comes to violating male genitals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
2. Circumcision is NOT some barbaric, heinous act performed only by religious zealots, and permanently damaging the souls and psyches of every male who has it done.
3. You, and everybody else, is free to criticize circumcision. That is your right and it is protected under law.
That is true, but no where under the law does it say you can mutilate your children. If you are against people cutting females children, why do you not have the same attitude towards male children?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
4. When you decide to move from the realm of free speech to the realm of forcibly removing parental rights, you have crossed a line that should not be crossed.
We do it all the time. We don't allow parents to keep children locked up in the basement all their lives, we don't allow people to sell their children.. etc etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
5. Pro-life or pro-choice is not an either/or proposition.
I do not understand how this applies to this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
I know more about how to raise my children properly than do you - and that is proven by the fact that they're all adults and are marvelous individuals. On the other hand, I am not going to run around screaming and yelling, try to force you to raise your kids the way I think you ought to raise them - assuming you actually have children.
We are not talking about raising children, we are talking about performing irreversible unnecessary surgical procedure with out anesthetic on children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks
It seems to me that I am FOR individual civil rights, and you are AGAINST individual civil rights.
You have got it all wrong. It is I who want the child to have an individual civil right, to have the choice of removing part of his/her body. He/she can make that choice when they are legally adults.
1) I hardly consider this topic a "great debate." All I've seen on this bazillion page thread are people who are either a) ambivalent about the subject, and (rightly) feel that they have no business discussing other childrens' penis', and who aren't forcing their beliefs on anyone, or b) people who feel that all parents who circumcise their sons are perverts - obviously paraphrasing, but having gone through this entire thread on a lunch break, it's honestly shocking how intolerant and forceful these people are. I don't think they understand that people really don't care what they think (certainly not the people on this thread, I know I haven't seen anyone become "convinced" based on their rants), and really, they're harming their credibility when they mix some good information with blatant lies.
I only read this topic because I will be having my first child next March, and wanted to see if anyone had any GOOD or RELEVANT discussion on it. I found none here. Once I saw people ranting about how this could be sexually motivated by parents, I was honestly aghast.
As for hygiene - I've seen both girl and boys have problems with this growing up (based on assertions by my girlfriends with kids). I could make it as simple as, boys often aren't taught to "wipe" by their dads after urinating (I guess their dad's do the "shake it out approach, which IMO, is STILL bad hygeine - is this just a thing with men?), whereas that's standard with girls - and if the boys are messy, stuff gets everywhere, including on themselves. Is that too juvenile of a concept for you? I'm sorry, I don't see myself eventually checking a ten year old son to see how clean he's keeping his package.
Great post!
Again, for those uneducated about intact boys...it is NOT safe to pull back the foreskin and wipe. Further more, wiping can lead to infection because bits of toilet paper can get caught under their foreskin. I know this one from experience. My first was fully detached well before age four and my current three year old is detaching and his fourth birthday is not too far away. Anyway, I taught DS #1 to wipe it and then he started rubbbing himself all day one day. I told him to knock it off over and over, nicely, and increasing my sterness when he burst into tears and said his penis was itchy. I had him get in a bath and pull the foreskin back to clean, as I had taught him to do when he had first become detached and there was some toilet paper stuck there. While he was red an irritated, we were able to catch the problem before it became an infection.
Now guess what, no more wiping. I taught him to let it air dry before he pulls his pants up and we haven't had a problem since.
PS: If your intact, and detached, son gets a yeast infection, have after dinner, set a little bit of cultured sugar free yogurt out to warm. Have him pee and then bathe right before bed. When he is dry, hand him the spoon and teach him to pull the foreskin back and rub the yogurt on himself. You'll notice that some gets pushed out by the foreskin. Its fine. Its doing it job. There will be enough left in there to cure the problem. Do this every night until it clears up.
This also works great for girls who might get an external yeast infection, though it is more rare.
Of course, the best policy is prevention and that is easily done with regular bathing. Just something that I learned when I was learning about teaching boys how to clean themselves.
Last edited by flik_becky; 10-06-2009 at 04:47 PM..
flik_becky - I don't and didn't propose anything by that post. It is a logical fallacy (non sequitur) that IF you teach kids to clean, they WILL clean. All I'm debunking is the argument of some that leaving it on there because children can be taught to clean will result in children cleaning. They can be taught, but they may not learn. Just as with teeth, you can tell them to clean it all you want but it's no guarantee they will. So, if you're for leaving it intact, by all means do. As with anything in life, we all make choices and we all take risks. Taking it off is a risk, not taking it off is a risk. It is a parent's tolerance for risk as well as their own experiences that is at play, which then dictates the choices they eventually make for their children.
Bad analogy on the teeth by the way...people with no teeth have a reduced ability for nutrition and life. And you wonder why people have labelled your posts as extremist...you swing from one side or the other.
I am going to repeat for your edification: I have no opinion on it one way or another.
Oh yes they will. Teaching is not done in one conversation. It is a process that will take about....18 years. If a child is not clean, it falls back to the parent who is not consistantly following up with their kids about hygiene expectations.
The teeth were a horrible analogy I agree but I thought it brought up a great point as to the argument that parents mutilate their son's penis for hygiene reasons. It is just as horrible. You brought up having to tell your kids to brush their teeth. First I do not get it because we taught our children how to brush well by themselves through age three and now every single night, when we say, "Go to bed," they all head off to the bathroom to brush their teeth. It is such a routine that it is done without thought. It depends on how important you make the issue.
Ok this debate has gone on for days. You know what I see? Those pro-circ are stating their "rights." Any evidence for why it should be done is just not there. They go on and on.
YET, those con-circ have offered up loads of information about the dangers of it, pictures of bottched circumcisions, and loads of proof that there is no medical need for it. They have compared removing the hood from little girls, which would be exactly equivalent to circumsizing a boy. We have also gone as far to help teach people how to care for an intact child.
What do you have to show us in this debate that we could possibly be wrong besides you screaming like slave owners about your God given rights? Nothing.
Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.
The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. - Yet this seems to be the only thing that people seem to disagree about when it comes to violating male genitals.
That is true, but no where under the law does it say you can mutilate your children. If you are against people cutting females children, why do you not have the same attitude towards male children?
We do it all the time. We don't allow parents to keep children locked up in the basement all their lives, we don't allow people to sell their children.. etc etc etc.
I do not understand how this applies to this thread.
We are not talking about raising children, we are talking about performing irreversible unnecessary surgical procedure with out anesthetic on children.
You have got it all wrong. It is I who want the child to have an individual civil right, to have the choice of removing part of his/her body. He/she can make that choice when they are legally adults.
A guy who honestly believes that female genital mutilation and male circumcision are one in the same has absolutely no credibility whatever.
Sorry. You lose again.
Now... You're more than welcome to stay where you are - away from my family. Far away, where your lunacy will not interfere with our lives. Thanks you!
Ok this debate has gone on for days. You know what I see? Those pro-circ are stating their "rights." Any evidence for why it should be done is just not there. They go on and on.
YET, those con-circ have offered up loads of information about the dangers of it, pictures of bottched circumcisions, and loads of proof that there is no medical need for it. They have compared removing the hood from little girls, which would be exactly equivalent to circumsizing a boy. We have also gone as far to help teach people how to care for an intact child.
What do you have to show us in this debate that we could possibly be wrong besides you screaming like slave owners about your God given rights? Nothing.
What makes you, of all people, think that you have anything to say about my penis, or my son's penises?
A guy who honestly believes that female genital mutilation and male circumcision are one in the same has absolutely no credibility whatever.
Sorry. You lose again.
Now... You're more than welcome to stay where you are - away from my family. Far away, where your lunacy will not interfere with our lives. Thanks you!
That is not an argument. You only made a number of assertions.
Assertion 1. Female and male genital mutilation are not the same. (you did not explain why)
Assertion 2. I lose again. (you didn't address anything I said)
Assertion 3. I will hurt your family (when in fact I want to protect them)
Assertion 4. My ideas a lunacy. (not willing to even quote me once)
Can you see what I have done, I disagree with you, and I made my point, and gave you 4 reasons (where 1 is enough).
Are you trying to claim that their key facts against female genital mutilation does not apply to males? If so explain.
Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.
The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women.
From the same website: "Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."
That is not an argument. You only made a number of assertions.
Assertion 1. Female and male genital mutilation are not the same. (you did not explain why)
Assertion 2. I lose again. (you didn't address anything I said)
Assertion 3. I will hurt your family (when in fact I want to protect them)
Assertion 4. My ideas a lunacy. (not willing to even quote me once)
Can you see what I have done, I disagree with you, and I made my point, and gave you 4 reasons (where 1 is enough).
Are you trying to claim that their key facts against female genital mutilation does not apply to males? If so explain.
Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually.
The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women.
From the same website: "Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."
I ask you again to defend your position.
What are you? Blind?
I have stated, re-stated, defended and re-defended my position - and have done so repeatedly.
My position is simply this: The decision to circumcise - or not circumcise - a baby boy is one that is to be made by his parents. PERIOD.
There. Now, I've highlighted it in red, bolded and italicized it, and underlined it. DO YOU SEE IT NOW?
What, about that, are you incapable of understanding - especially after I've said the same thing about 50 times?
What makes you, of all people, think that you have anything to say about my penis, or my son's penises?
What is wrong with you people?
Who says we are talking about just the penis?
If a parent want to castrate their child, do they have the right?
What about removing all of the breast tissue?
Pulling out finger nails?
Genital mutilation is one of many forms of child abuse.
Why are you talking about your penis? This is a clear attempt and creating a debating fallacy called a "straw man".
If you want to mutilate your penis, that is up to you, but you can not mutilate anyone else body.
Who says we are talking about just the penis?
If a parent want to castrate their child, do they have the right?
What about removing all of the breast tissue?
Pulling out finger nails?
Genital mutilation is one of many forms of child abuse.
Why are you talking about your penis? This is a clear attempt and creating a debating fallacy called a "straw man".
If you want to mutilate your penis, that is up to you, but you can not mutilate anyone else body.
This is stupid. Just plain stupid. Purely, utterly stupid.
Now you're trying to say that circumcision has nothing to do with the penis?
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