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My "position" is that parents have the inherent right to raise our children without interference from the likes of you.
What do you think of female genital mutilation? Accept it the way it is, and not utter a word against (another) heinous act performed in the name of tradition, religion or whatever by their families?
I can see where you're going, and while parents are free to decide, why are you so opposed to them being criticized for doing (what many of us see) as stupid act in the name of religion, tradition or whatever.
As a side note, do you consider self to be a pro-lifer or one who is pro-choice?
All that post showed me was how black and white some people consider this "situation" if it even merits that word, to be. My husband and I are apparently twisted and think about our child sexually because we'll be circumcising our child, if it is a boy. How utterly ridiculous. What really seems to be creepy about this thread is the need for some people to become obsessed the choices of other people that are considered to be a parental decision (not surprising, considering I have seen the lack of hygiene that kids tend to have, even into their teenage years). - and most of these people aren't even parents.
If hygiene is the reason, you must also support an equivalent procedure done on females. Would you? One doesn't have to be a parent to understand the issue. Would you like to explain why you believe so? You seem to hate the idea of any argument placed against your beliefs, but you invite that by participating in debates. If you're into monologues, you may want to avoid a forum like "Great Debates".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bibit612
First, you assume all parents subscribe to the same level of hygiene you do...
True. But if we're dealing with parents who assume that circumcising their boy(s) is a way to avoid teaching them anything about personal hygiene, I wonder if they care about teaching their girl(s) as well.
May be they should start asking for removal of female prepuce as well, because it results in a similar "problem" (because they choose to see existence of prepuce as such), without realizing why it exists in the first place and the advantages it offers (which they don't mind taking away from their son(s) who will never know).
Last edited by EinsteinsGhost; 10-06-2009 at 12:01 PM..
EG - I have no strong opinions one way or another, which means if my circumcized son decides to leave his future sons intact, or for that matter, my daughter deciding on leaving her future sons intact, it isn't going to be a family crisis event. We don't judge people who do, and people who don't. I was just responding to a very presumptious statement by the PP about parents teaching kids how to clean will always yield children who grow up knowing how to clean. Thus, the argument for NOT doing it because kids can be taught and therefore expected to clean is not one I can subscribe to. Eventually, the kids' own vanity and need to keep hygiene habits will compel them to clean.
EG - I have no strong opinions one way or another, which means if my circumcized son decides to leave his future sons intact, or for that matter, my daughter deciding on leaving her future sons intact, it isn't going to be a family crisis event. We don't judge people who do, and people who don't. I was just responding to a very presumptious statement by the PP about parents teaching kids how to clean will always yield children who grow up knowing how to clean. Thus, the argument for NOT doing it because kids can be taught and therefore expected to clean is not one I can subscribe to. Eventually, the kids' own vanity and need to keep hygiene habits will compel them to clean.
I agree. People should have choices, but at the same time, a good debate often leads to addressing misconceptions. Many people make choices around misinformation, and often following traditions without realizing the consequences.
I would say, though, that teaching hygiene is a parental responsibility and then it is up to the individual to take it or leave it (and deal with the consequences). It applies equally to males and females, circumcised or not.
What I find most amusing is that some simply refuse to accept that circumcision comes with its set of drawbacks, takes away a functioning part of the body (not just for pleasure, but also anti-viral/bacterial protection). Then they claim the child is just fine. Well, the child will never know!
If hygiene is the reason, you must also support an equivalent procedure done on females. Would you? One doesn't have to be a parent to understand the issue. Would you like to explain why you believe so? You seem to hate the idea of any argument placed against your beliefs, but you invite that by participating in debates. If you're into monologues, you may want to avoid a forum like "Great Debates".
True. But if we're dealing with parents who assume that circumcising their boy(s) is a way to avoid teaching them anything about personal hygiene, I wonder if they care about teaching their girl(s) as well.
May be they should start asking for removal of female prepuce as well, because it results in a similar "problem" (because they choose to see existence of prepuce as such), without realizing why it exists in the first place and the advantages it offers (which they don't mind taking away from their son(s) who will never know).
1) I hardly consider this topic a "great debate." All I've seen on this bazillion page thread are people who are either a) ambivalent about the subject, and (rightly) feel that they have no business discussing other childrens' penis', and who aren't forcing their beliefs on anyone, or b) people who feel that all parents who circumcise their sons are perverts - obviously paraphrasing, but having gone through this entire thread on a lunch break, it's honestly shocking how intolerant and forceful these people are. I don't think they understand that people really don't care what they think (certainly not the people on this thread, I know I haven't seen anyone become "convinced" based on their rants), and really, they're harming their credibility when they mix some good information with blatant lies.
I only read this topic because I will be having my first child next March, and wanted to see if anyone had any GOOD or RELEVANT discussion on it. I found none here. Once I saw people ranting about how this could be sexually motivated by parents, I was honestly aghast.
As for hygiene - I've seen both girl and boys have problems with this growing up (based on assertions by my girlfriends with kids). I could make it as simple as, boys often aren't taught to "wipe" by their dads after urinating (I guess their dad's do the "shake it out approach, which IMO, is STILL bad hygeine - is this just a thing with men?), whereas that's standard with girls - and if the boys are messy, stuff gets everywhere, including on themselves. Is that too juvenile of a concept for you? I'm sorry, I don't see myself eventually checking a ten year old son to see how clean he's keeping his package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bibit612
EG - I have no strong opinions one way or another, which means if my circumcized son decides to leave his future sons intact, or for that matter, my daughter deciding on leaving her future sons intact, it isn't going to be a family crisis event. We don't judge people who do, and people who don't. I was just responding to a very presumptious statement by the PP about parents teaching kids how to clean will always yield children who grow up knowing how to clean. Thus, the argument for NOT doing it because kids can be taught and therefore expected to clean is not one I can subscribe to. Eventually, the kids' own vanity and need to keep hygiene habits will compel them to clean.
Don't parents teach their daughters how to keep their girl parts clean? I would imagine they would do the same for their son. It's not that hard to pull back the foreskin and do a little wash every time they shower. How lazy is that??
And it's not about parenting and choices, it's about doing what essentially is cosmetic surgery on a baby. It just doesn't make sense to some of us and I suspect most people don't even know why they do it. All I'm saying is do the research, talk to the medical professionals before you do it. You might be surprised at what you learn and what you thought was the truth. A lot of the myths in the pro-circ camp have been debunked, so why put your baby through a painful procedure. Makes zero sense.
Now wait a minute this is both right and wrong so just to clarify it for those who are less educated on the matter.....you do not, I repeat do NOT want to encourage pulling the foreskin back before it naturally detaches itself from the head. It is naturally attached to head and can not, and should not, be pulled back to far. Many parents believe that from infancy, in order to clean an intact penis, the foreskin needs to be pulled back so they pull it back. Setting your baby so their penis is fully emerged in water during bathtime is all you need until they are older.
Pulling the foreskin back too far before it is ready causes immense pain for your child and causes damage. The build up of scar tisue over time could result in a medically necessary circumcision. It can also cause some of the same problems that botched circumcision cause where there is a bridge of skin formed when healing between the foreskin and the head with a gap underneath. It is not as much of a problem for a young child, expect for when it is erect but when they are older and that happens more often the pulling becomes very painful to them, especially when having sex.
The reason I feel I need to point this out is that nurses and doctors often will also recommend pulling it back. They told us that with our first son and I was quick to correct their ignornance. It takes just a quick look online of pics of the problems, the knowledge of the pain it causes, and a small bit of education of the foreskin's purpose. (yes it has a purpose, should we start that one all over again.
First, you assume all parents subscribe to the same level of hygiene you do, second, that if they do, they teach their kids the same way, and third, that their kids actually follow. I grew up in a country where feminine hygiene at home meant a dipper cup filled with water to wash after every bathroom trip, wash not just wipe. At where I worked back in the old country, women actually wet wads of tissue paper before entering the cubicle so your feminine parts are washed, not just wiped. Forward into the US where the same dipper cup exists in my bathrooms, where my kids, girl and boy, are asked to maintain proper hygiene. Think that dipper cup was ever used in their bathroom?! Exactly how am I supposed to "enforce" personal hygiene with teenagers...watch while they go? Heck, I have to shout out a reminder to brush their teeth! You can't just assume that because one is taught that one learns and follows. On that note, everyone is taught that cheating is bad. If everyone learned, we'd have more tax revenue won't we?
So what do you propose then...we take the teeth out of our children because they may get a cavity someday? I'm confused at the relevance of this.
The cleanliness of a child is not in full the child's responsibility....it is ultimately the parents. Of course we will have to remind them to clean themselves. That is why our species cares for their children longer than any other.
And for the record, I do not agree that we should put off an organ off of either boys or girls because they may or may not be taught or follow taught hygiene expectations. It leave us to question the hygiene of other areas of the body that may be missed by kids. What about ears, dirt gets behind them. Should we cut the ears off? What about the ear wax then? Armpits? Hair on our heads? They could get lice, ticks can hide you know and give them lymes disease, fleas, it could conceal wounds inflicted by their parents thus hiding abuse for years. Hair is unsanitary. We should all be bald.
Hygiene is a poor excuse for parents who are uncomfortable with talking about foreskins with their sons.
flik_becky - I don't and didn't propose anything by that post. It is a logical fallacy (non sequitur) that IF you teach kids to clean, they WILL clean. All I'm debunking is the argument of some that leaving it on there because children can be taught to clean will result in children cleaning. They can be taught, but they may not learn. Just as with teeth, you can tell them to clean it all you want but it's no guarantee they will. So, if you're for leaving it intact, by all means do. As with anything in life, we all make choices and we all take risks. Taking it off is a risk, not taking it off is a risk. It is a parent's tolerance for risk as well as their own experiences that is at play, which then dictates the choices they eventually make for their children.
Bad analogy on the teeth by the way...people with no teeth have a reduced ability for nutrition and life. And you wonder why people have labelled your posts as extremist...you swing from one side or the other.
I am going to repeat for your edification: I have no opinion on it one way or another.
Last edited by BagongBuhay; 10-06-2009 at 02:27 PM..
Reason: wrong fallacy type
Flik-Becky: YES I got misleading info as well on how to care for my son's intact penis. Crazy, isn't it? You are not supposed to do anything to it until it fully retracts on its own (I guess around age 5 or so, not sure when, my son is just nearly 3). And YES, I've told my husband that it will be HIS job to teach him how to clean it when the time comes.
And YES, kids, esp pre teens are either very bad at hygiene or very good at it. But honestly, it's the same concept for boy and girl, and if they CHOOSE not to keep themselves clean, they will smell, and there's no better motivator than when one of their friends tells them they smell bad! I've already had discussions with my daughter that she will start to stink if it isn't kept clean. She's only 6, so she isn't that smelly anyways, but not wiping has been an issue in my house and I imagine when she hits the "smelly years", I'll have to reinforce hygiene again... lol..
And this did prove to be a great debate, hence the thousand page thread. I just ran across an article and thought I should post it. I just have a strong opinion on it, I guess. But I could care less about other things. No biggie, it's just what you choose to try to educate people about.
What do you think of female genital mutilation? Accept it the way it is, and not utter a word against (another) heinous act performed in the name of tradition, religion or whatever by their families?
I can see where you're going, and while parents are free to decide, why are you so opposed to them being criticized for doing (what many of us see) as stupid act in the name of religion, tradition or whatever.
As a side note, do you consider self to be a pro-lifer or one who is pro-choice?
1. Female genital mutilation and circumcision are NOT the same thing.
2. Circumcision is NOT some barbaric, heinous act performed only by religious zealots, and permanently damaging the souls and psyches of every male who has it done.
3. You, and everybody else, is free to criticize circumcision. That is your right and it is protected under law.
4. When you decide to move from the realm of free speech to the realm of forcibly removing parental rights, you have crossed a line that should not be crossed.
5. Pro-life or pro-choice is not an either/or proposition.
I know more about how to raise my children properly than do you - and that is proven by the fact that they're all adults and are marvelous individuals. On the other hand, I am not going to run around screaming and yelling, try to force you to raise your kids the way I think you ought to raise them - assuming you actually have children.
It seems to me that I am FOR individual civil rights, and you are AGAINST individual civil rights.
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