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Secondly, Islam, like it's sibling religion Christianity, is more than interested in spreading it's influence, just like it's sibling religion. Where you get the idea that Islam doesn't want to spread is beyond me. And as for your Columbus anology, try that in England and France especially.
You're going to have to be more specific. Just how has Islam been spread to France and England? How have they become Muslim countries? I got the idea from the simple historical fact that since the 16th century, there has been no expansion at all of the Islamic map, nor have Islamic nations waged any wars beyond their area of wel-established influence to try to force other peoples to embrace their religion.
In the post-Columbian era, I think the French and the British know about as much as anybody about their own "agenda" to spread their culture by force into areas already Muslim, including North Africa, the Levant, and the Indian subcontinent.
Or do you mean that if private individuals from undeveloped countries emigrate to industrialized countries, that constitutes an "agenda" of spreading their religion to the rest of the world? Do you really think the Turks and Algerians and Iranians going to Europe as immigrants are being sent there by the imams as a part of a great agenda to Islamize Europe?
Give me some historical examples since the sixteenth century of any Islamic nation trying to exert any organized military force over non-Islamic lands in order to try to expand the global influence of an Islamic agenda.
jtur88, I would suggest though, that when illiterate folks flee to the US to live the American dream, they cannot easily (or "do not", may be more accurate...) abandon their personal spiritual belief systems. We've all seen how Christianity has been emblazoned onto the minds of little children in Sunday School, when they are most vulnerable to fear-mongering and superstition (can you imagine trying to convince an educated adult that "there are monsters under the bed!"? Now, try the same with your 5 year old...).
Americans have been historically too trusting, and generally accepting of others' belief systems, no matter how radical, until they find out those types have been quietly scheming to hurt innocent American lives, with no concern for the innocent: women and children. How nice.
They come here, they become gainfully employed, and their fears about the "politico politzia" subsides, and then, after a few years, they can finally live out their fervent religious beliefs. Which, having been formulated and imbedded and reinforced when they were that 5 year old, they then decide to act out as the beliefs and directives of their "hive masters", whether that be devout nonsense Christianity or the perhaps more violence-prone Islam.
At least the Qu'Ran is open and honest about it's violent intentions.
All religion is based on nonsense and fear and illiteracy, and it's role in the advancement or downfall of civilized man is well documented. We Westerners just don't celebrate the more violent advocacy of it, as, apparently, the peasant followers of Islam openly do. (After all, they have precious little else to live for, and are openly courted and "handled" by their immams) As such, we may have to reconsider their social fit and suitability in our particularly open and trusting society.
It's interesting to me that, of all the so-called open societies, only Japan, with it's long-held and strict immigration laws (it's almost impossible to get in!) has managed to keep at least a basic handle on sect violence. Oh I know; it's happened, but not on a quarterly basis as happens here, in Britain, Europe and the Middle East.
I'd suggest: don't allow the infidel immigrants to contaminate your established and valued culture, else it all ends up as a mindless cultural slurry on the floor! As it has in Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, Britain and Western Europe. Sad. Quite a cultural loss, IMHO.
You're going to have to be more specific. Just how has Islam been spread to France and England? How have they become Muslim countries? I got the idea from the simple historical fact that since the 16th century, there has been no expansion at all of the Islamic map, nor have Islamic nations waged any wars beyond their area of wel-established influence to try to force other peoples to embrace their religion.
In the post-Columbian era, I think the French and the British know about as much as anybody about their own "agenda" to spread their culture by force into areas already Muslim, including North Africa, the Levant, and the Indian subcontinent.
Or do you mean that if private individuals from undeveloped countries emigrate to industrialized countries, that constitutes an "agenda" of spreading their religion to the rest of the world? Do you really think the Turks and Algerians and Iranians going to Europe as immigrants are being sent there by the imams as a part of a great agenda to Islamize Europe?
Give me some historical examples since the sixteenth century of any Islamic nation trying to exert any organized military force over non-Islamic lands in order to try to expand the global influence of an Islamic agenda.
Good heavens, are you THAT clueless?
Again like Christianity, Islam ALSO spreads by conversion, not just by the sword.
Again like Christianity, Islam ALSO spreads by conversion, not just by the sword.
Good heavens, are you THAT clueless?
If Americans refuse to convert to Islam, then the Muslim "agenda" will simply fail. What's the problem?
Show me the agenda. You say there is one, and that Islam as a whole is zealously striving to carry it out in America and elsewhere. Show it to me.
Name one country that is now predominantly Islam, that wasn't 400 years ago. Or even one city. So that we can all rationally cower in fear that we shall suffer the same fate.
jtur88, I would suggest though, that when illiterate folks flee to the US to live the American dream, they cannot easily (or "do not", may be more accurate...) abandon their personal spiritual belief systems. We've all seen how Christianity has been emblazoned onto the minds of little children in Sunday School, when they are most vulnerable to fear-mongering and superstition (can you imagine trying to convince an educated adult that "there are monsters under the bed!"? Now, try the same with your 5 year old...).
Americans have been historically too trusting, and generally accepting of others' belief systems, no matter how radical, until they find out those types have been quietly scheming to hurt innocent American lives, with no concern for the innocent: women and children. How nice.
They come here, they become gainfully employed, and their fears about the "politico politzia" subsides, and then, after a few years, they can finally live out their fervent religious beliefs. Which, having been formulated and imbedded and reinforced when they were that 5 year old, they then decide to act out as the beliefs and directives of their "hive masters", whether that be devout nonsense Christianity or the perhaps more violence-prone Islam.
At least the Qu'Ran is open and honest about it's violent intentions.
All religion is based on nonsense and fear and illiteracy, and it's role in the advancement or downfall of civilized man is well documented. We Westerners just don't celebrate the more violent advocacy of it, as, apparently, the peasant followers of Islam openly do. (After all, they have precious little else to live for, and are openly courted and "handled" by their immams)As such, we may have to reconsider their social fit and suitability in our particularly open and trusting society.
It's interesting to me that, of all the so-called open societies, only Japan, with it's long-held and strict immigration laws (it's almost impossible to get in!) has managed to keep at least a basic handle on sect violence. Oh I know; it's happened, but not on a quarterly basis as happens here, in Britain, Europe and the Middle East.
I'd suggest: don't allow the infidel immigrants to contaminate your established and valued culture, else it all ends up as a mindless cultural slurry on the floor! As it has in Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries, Britain and Western Europe. Sad. Quite a cultural loss, IMHO.
A breath of fresh air amongst vast intellectual pollution. Though the blind will forever insist on staying that way, thank you.
Americans have been historically too trusting, and generally accepting of others' belief systems, no matter how radical, until they find out those types have been quietly scheming to hurt innocent American lives, with no concern for the innocent: women and children. How nice.
7.
OK, there was 9/11. I presume you have a nice long list of other incidents in which Muslims came to this country and hurt innocent American lives with no concern for the innocent. I eagerly look forward to seeing your list. There are 2.5 million Muslims in this country, so feel free to attach a second sheet if there is no room for your long list of such incidents. What about those guys who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors, they're religious zealots. I forgot---were they Muslims?
Almost one percent of our population are Muslims, who are of such a violent nature, they must be at least one-percent of our prison population, which would be 20,000. Can you show any figures that would confirm that?
If Americans refuse to convert to Islam, then the Muslim "agenda" will simply fail. What's the problem?
Show me the agenda. You say there is one, and that Islam as a whole is zealously striving to carry it out in America and elsewhere. Show it to me.
Name one country that is now predominantly Islam, that wasn't 400 years ago. Or even one city. So that we can all rationally cower in fear that we shall suffer the same fate.
You, sir, are the one claiming an agenda I did not propose.
Go back and read carefully what I wrote, and you will see it is the Terrorist's Agenda I spoke of, not Islam in general.
And for your example, look anywhere in the eastern portion of Kenya.
Regarding Islam conquering the world - from Ayatollah Khomeini...
But those who study jihad will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. All the countries conquered by Islam or to be conquered in the future will be marked for everlasting salvation. For they shall live under [God’s law].
Also...
Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!
Ayatollah Khomeini to the BBC: "Islam Wants To Conquer The Whole World" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95754949@N00/162695897/ - broken link)
Don't compare this w/ Christianity. We do want people to follow Christ, but it is through believing the gospel - not by fearing the sword.
Regarding Islam conquering the world - from Ayatollah Khomeini...
But those who study jihad will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. All the countries conquered by Islam or to be conquered in the future will be marked for everlasting salvation. For they shall live under [God’s law].
Also...
Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!
Ayatollah Khomeini to the BBC: "Islam Wants To Conquer The Whole World" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95754949@N00/162695897/ - broken link)
Don't compare this w/ Christianity. We do want people to follow Christ, but it is through believing the gospel - not by fearing the sword.
Strange, my mind kept using Pat Robertson's vioce when I read those quotes.
BTW, shall I list those people using bombs and terrorism to spread your gospel as well?
In this, the two younger Abrahamics are no different. Both have theopolitical agendas, both use mostly prostylization, and both have elements who will kill to spread the religion.
I'm Jewish and part of my family is Catholic so obviously I'm no fan of Islam. Being fair however for every muslim killer here there have been 100 priests and thousands of citizen murderers. Nichols and McVeigh were white right wing Americans. So many Americans kill others on the streets every day that we never think "Hey that's an American doing the killing- maybe we have too many" When a muslim farts in a bad way its front page news. Most muslims do not subscribe to violence against the infidels anymore than most whites are part of the KKK or Nazi party wanting to kill Blacks and Jews.
I'm personally not so comfy with Muslims but we should not discriminate.
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