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I've argued with Intelligent Designers and Creationists on this forum countless time. Usually, because their argument is that Evolution is completely wrong.
I was watching a documentary today, and most of the scientists that supported Intelligent Design don't discount evolution. Most of them said that its obvious that changes between species occur over time. Most of them believe that the world is about 4.5 billion years old, and that species have evolved since their "creation" so to speak.
The argument begins with the beginning of life. Evolution doesn't answer the question of how life began. No science does, really. No one knows how the first single celled organism came about. It could be a "Creator", could be a alien seeding, it could be a comet brought amino acids to Earth, who knows.
The answer is no one.
So whats wrong with the "I don't know" answer to questions like these. The Evolutionists seem to dismiss the ID people as religious quacks. Don't get me wrong, many of them are. However, that doesn't mean that the people who are asking how life began and using a designer to answer that question are wrong. They may be right, no one knows.
Religious folks are wrong for dismissing evolution completely. Life didn't begin 6000 years ago, thats very evident. We most likely evolved from an ape like creature, which evolved from something else, which evolved from something else. However, embracing evolution doesn't mean you aren't Christian, it simply means you accept the evidence is there that it did happen. There is evidence it did happen, but no evidence on how evolution got started.
I believe Intelligent design activists might very well be best served by coming up with a new name. Maybe the "originators" or something like that.
Ignoring either side isn't getting us anywhere on answering these questions.
Now this doesn't mean ID should be taught in schools. However, it doesn't mean that Evolution should be taught as having all the answers in schools either. What it means is that answering "I don't know" isn't such a bad thing.
I don't know opens doors. It raises questions. Some questions may never be answered, but we may answer a lot more then we have now.
So, whats wrong with saying "I don't know"
Well, I don't know.
I don't know how you can believe in God and dismiss evolution. I figure that, on the day of creation, the first thing God did was lay down the laws this universe follows. I have no doubt that everything he created is just as if it had followed those rules to come into being whether it did or not. For example, I suspect Adam had a belly button even though he never used his and that if you were to cut down a fully grown redwood tree on the day of creation, you'd see growth rings representing years the tree did not grwo. I think everything was created in it's mature form just as if it had grown up from embryo, or seed. Ditto for mature species and plantes and solar systems and, heck, the entire universe.
And there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know". What arrogant fools we'd be if we expected that God gave us ALL the answers. God doesn't owe me an answer as to how he created. It's enough to know he did.
Personally, I find my belief in God not in the bible but in the study of science. The very laws he laid down on the day of creation. I don't care if we evolved or not really. I debated this with myself for a decade and was stymied. Then I asked myself a different question. "What difference does it make?" and to my surprise, the answer is none. Regardless of how we got here we are having this conversation. We are beings capable do debating the existence of God. What an awsome thing. Regardless of our origins, we are unique among the animals in this. THAT is what matters.
FTR, I think the 7 day of creation story in the bible is probably copied from the Enuma Elish (sp?). The older of the two creation accounts in Genesis simply says "God created". That could mean he started it all in motion knowing we'd be the end result or that he poofed us into existence. I don't likely care which it was. I'm here typing this now and that is what really matters.
I can put it more simply. They think it promotes atheism.
That's not correct at all. All evolution establishes is that Genesis cannot be literally true. It is only a small (and kooky) minority in Christianity, for example, that are Biblical Literalists.
If they are willing to believe the Bible is literally true in every respect, despite the findings of modern science, despite history, despite reality, then there is nothing that people like you and I will ever be able to do to convince them otherwise.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of the truth than lies." - Nietzsche
Actually, what I said is completely true, in the majority of cases. Evolution threatens their entire belief system, since it is the foundation of why they worship their god. After all, they wouldn't worship a god who came into the universe post-creation and took over the reins.
It is all linked and connected. Evolution threatens their believe in Creation, which is the foundation of their entire religion, which makes them numb to the dreaded fear of mortality.
Once you understand how they think, you'll get it.
I don't know how you can believe in God and dismiss evolution. I figure that, on the day of creation, the first thing God did was lay down the laws this universe follows. I have no doubt that everything he created is just as if it had followed those rules to come into being whether it did or not. For example, I suspect Adam had a belly button even though he never used his and that if you were to cut down a fully grown redwood tree on the day of creation, you'd see growth rings representing years the tree did not grwo. I think everything was created in it's mature form just as if it had grown up from embryo, or seed. Ditto for mature species and plantes and solar systems and, heck, the entire universe.
And there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know". What arrogant fools we'd be if we expected that God gave us ALL the answers. God doesn't owe me an answer as to how he created. It's enough to know he did.
Personally, I find my belief in God not in the bible but in the study of science. The very laws he laid down on the day of creation. I don't care if we evolved or not really. I debated this with myself for a decade and was stymied. Then I asked myself a different question. "What difference does it make?" and to my surprise, the answer is none. Regardless of how we got here we are having this conversation. We are beings capable do debating the existence of God. What an awsome thing. Regardless of our origins, we are unique among the animals in this. THAT is what matters.
FTR, I think the 7 day of creation story in the bible is probably copied from the Enuma Elish (sp?). The older of the two creation accounts in Genesis simply says "God created". That could mean he started it all in motion knowing we'd be the end result or that he poofed us into existence. I don't likely care which it was. I'm here typing this now and that is what really matters.
I'll make it real simple for you.
Evolution is the study of how life evolved, after it began. Before life began, is anyones guess at this point.
My belief in a creator, and also evolution, means that I hold to some irrational beliefs, but I also believe in fact.
In simpler terms, Evolution explains the how, creation, to me, explains the why.
Personally, I find my belief in God not in the bible but in the study of science. The very laws he laid down on the day of creation..
There is the defect in your logic and your syntax. The correct phrase would be "the very laws that were laid down on the day of creation". The existence of something does not in itself imply any particular cause of it. And that law of logic, if it exists, was created by your God and is therefore inviolable. Which makes your argument circular.
Evolution is the study of how life evolved, after it began. Before life began, is anyones guess at this point.
My belief in a creator, and also evolution, means that I hold to some irrational beliefs, but I also believe in fact.
In simpler terms, Evolution explains the how, creation, to me, explains the why.
I see you have your very own personal version of creationsism that nobody knew, until now, about.
Creationism mythology asserts that all life was created in what amounts to one great cosmic fell swoop with all living together. Most have died off, except those that exist now, but it does NOT incorporate any element of evolution into it. Somer, perhaps you, have reinvented creationism to incorporate the LAW of Evolution, but grudgingly and only in the face of the overwhelming proof of the Law of Evolution.
Science doesn't have to guess, because it discovereds truty. Myth-believers, OTOH, guess, or just plain make it up, because they have no facts, and are basically afraid of the facts.
I see you have your very own personal version of creationsism that nobody knew, until now, about.
Creationism mythology asserts that all life was created in what amounts to one great cosmic fell swoop with all living together. Most have died off, except those that exist now, but it does NOT incorporate any element of evolution into it. Somer, perhaps you, have reinvented creationism to incorporate the LAW of Evolution, but grudgingly and only in the face of the overwhelming proof of the Law of Evolution.
Science doesn't have to guess, because it discovereds truty. Myth-believers, OTOH, guess, or just plain make it up, because they have no facts, and are basically afraid of the facts.
MahiAhiOno
Show me the scientific facts, that show how life began.
I've got news for you, there aren't any. Science has changed their view of how life began, several times. There are theories, but none proven.
Evolution doesn't tell the story of how life began. How amino acids formed, and banned together to create the first cell ever, or however it happened, isn't evolution.
Evolution, is how life changed, over time, to the great abundance we enjoy today.
Life could be just random events, enough heat, at the right time, or some radiation in the right place, the fact is, no one knows. Despite all of our knowledge, we still don't believe know how that happened in the first place.
I believe there was a creator, that using natural laws and effects, created everything. Thats my personal belief, and thats the end of it.
The reason I started this debate, was to show that both sides of the evolution/creation argument can be wrong. You are helping to prove my point. When faced with the lack of knowledge, you assume there is no creation. Creationists, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence of evolution, ignore that fact.
Show me the scientific facts, that show how life began.
I've got news for you, there aren't any. Science has changed their view of how life began, several times. There are theories, but none proven.
Evolution doesn't tell the story of how life began. How amino acids formed, and banned together to create the first cell ever, or however it happened, isn't evolution.
Evolution, is how life changed, over time, to the great abundance we enjoy today.
Life could be just random events, enough heat, at the right time, or some radiation in the right place, the fact is, no one knows. Despite all of our knowledge, we still don't believe know how that happened in the first place.
I believe there was a creator, that using natural laws and effects, created everything. Thats my personal belief, and thats the end of it.
The reason I started this debate, was to show that both sides of the evolution/creation argument can be wrong. You are helping to prove my point. When faced with the lack of knowledge, you assume there is no creation. Creationists, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence of evolution, ignore that fact.
Nice try, but no cigar. I never asserted that evolution explains the initiation of life. That is another part of the science of life. However, man is getting very close to creating primitive life.
I am a bit confused by your confusion. If god is the creator, how did he
use(ing) natural laws and effects, created everything.
If he used natural laws and effects, they must have pre-existed him, so who created those natural laws and effects???
And finally, by your words "and thats the end of it.", you demonstrate a level of closed-mindedness not commonly found among thinking people.
Nice try, but no cigar. I never asserted that evolution explains the initiation of life. That is another part of the science of life. However, man is getting very close to creating primitive life.
I am a bit confused by your confusion. If god is the creator, how did he
use(ing) natural laws and effects, created everything.
If he used natural laws and effects, they must have pre-existed him, so who created those natural laws and effects???
And finally, by your words "and thats the end of it.", you demonstrate a level of closed-mindedness not commonly found among thinking people.
MahiAhiOno
We are beginning to get into a religious debate, lets try not to do that.
My view is that their is a creator, I choose to call it God, for reasons of translation. This "God" simply made everything. Before the big bang, there was God, God said bang, and there was a big bang. If this God did create everything, he new that his starting everything would start the laws of physics that we know, evolution, life beginning, celestial bodies colliding, etc. He started all of the natural processes, and then just let it go.
I don't personally believe that God steps in to help man out. That wouldn't make sense, if God had to help us, then he isn't all powerful, because he doesn't know what is going to happen.
But science isn't even close to creating life. Atmospheric conditions have been mimiced exactly how they were when life is thought to began. Amino acids that are thought to be the first ones ever, were put together, and nothing happened.
Lifes origins haven't been discovered, and I believe that the creator made that life, and all life, and all celestial bodies, dark matter, black holes, everything.
As much as Stephen Hawkins has tried, he hasn't come up with a theory of everything yet.
My point is, that creation, and evolution can still exist in this environment. Science can't answer the how life began question. Perhaps one day it will, and disprove all possibility of a God. However, I think there will always be room for a creator, because not all questions will ever be answered.
When I say creator, that could mean aliens, could mean the God of Abraham, could be Jesus, could be we are a small part of a cell of a larger being, that was created by something else.
Who knows? The answer is no one. My problem with some folks in the evolution column is that they can't accept the possibility of a creator. Science is the study of everything. Until the possibility can be completely ruled out, it shouldn't be over looked.
We are beginning to get into a religious debate, lets try not to do that.
My view is that their is a creator, I choose to call it God, for reasons of translation. This "God" simply made everything. Before the big bang, there was God, God said bang, and there was a big bang. If this God did create everything, he new that his starting everything would start the laws of physics that we know, evolution, life beginning, celestial bodies colliding, etc. He started all of the natural processes, and then just let it go.
I don't personally believe that God steps in to help man out. That wouldn't make sense, if God had to help us, then he isn't all powerful, because he doesn't know what is going to happen.
But science isn't even close to creating life. Atmospheric conditions have been mimiced exactly how they were when life is thought to began. Amino acids that are thought to be the first ones ever, were put together, and nothing happened.
Lifes origins haven't been discovered, and I believe that the creator made that life, and all life, and all celestial bodies, dark matter, black holes, everything.
As much as Stephen Hawkins has tried, he hasn't come up with a theory of everything yet.
My point is, that creation, and evolution can still exist in this environment. Science can't answer the how life began question. Perhaps one day it will, and disprove all possibility of a God. However, I think there will always be room for a creator, because not all questions will ever be answered.
When I say creator, that could mean aliens, could mean the God of Abraham, could be Jesus, could be we are a small part of a cell of a larger being, that was created by something else.
Who knows? The answer is no one. My problem with some folks in the evolution column is that they can't accept the possibility of a creator. Science is the study of everything. Until the possibility can be completely ruled out, it shouldn't be over looked.
If there is a creator, science will discover him/her/it/... When/if it does, I will firmly believe. Unless and until then, I believe only facts.
Creationsism is 100% devoid of fact and answers absolutely nothing, except with disproven mythology.
This is so prototypically funny for a C-D debate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979
We are beginning to get into a religious debate,
lets try not to do that.
My view is that their is a creator, I choose to call it God,This "God" simply made everything.
Well since we aren't having a religious debate....
Quote:
Before the big bang, there was God,
That is a pretty strong assertion so you obviously have evidence to support it, would you like to share?
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