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The fate of pedophiles should be dertermined by the parents of the children sexually attacked, violated and sometimes murdered. Period.
And what if it’s their own parents who are molesting them? Are you saying that the fate should be up to the same parents, and if so in this situation then they are already molesting them so aren’t the parents then already condoning such behavior.
Ummm... no I'm not. Pedophilia or any sexual offense/assault is unacceptable behavior and it needs to be thwarted/punished/eliminated.
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Originally Posted by W James III
You seem to miss the point that there will always be new pedophiles born and nothing you that society can do to the already existing ones is going to prevent the new ones from acting.
Like others have said on here, plenty of bullets. At very least, we'll deal with them as things manifest. In the mean time, we can sit back and say, "Wow! It sure sucks for them there pedophiles.
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Originally Posted by W James III
Your argument is like saying if we take all the people with Downs Syndrome and lock them up the problem will be solved, it’s just not reality.
Your argument is really stupid here. Downs Syndrome is nothing like pedophilia.
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Originally Posted by W James III
Sounds to me like you’re lumping them all together and generalizing them. Also as humans we are share manipulative traits and characteristics, some more than others but this again manipulation can be applied to almost anyone or any criminal.
But this is a very specific and real symptom that law enforcement and corrections looks for in sex offenders and a gauge to how they are doing with treatment/rehabilitation. The one thing that can be done with these sick and twisted folks for treatment is put them in with other convicted sex offenders and let the experienced offenders working with the law enforcement gauge where the subject offenders are with their treatment. If they're at a high risk for reoffending, they are dealt with accordingly. If they are on probation, they have to do what's neccessary to have freedoms such as living at large and amongst us. There are places they can't live, they need to report to certain people their condition, work certain places, take drug and alcohol tests, have random home visits and have their drawers/computer/home thoroughly checked. If they're on parole, the same kinds of things. They may have a GPS ankle braclet and be monitored to and from work. Much can be done to try to note their progress/regression.
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Originally Posted by W James III
I will agree it does start in the mind for pedophiles but it’s also sad that society has so many hateful and unforgiving people who are quick to judge and condemn these people that we can’t use simple affective ways to address and solve this problem.
Frankly, it's none of their nor your business what they/we think. There's no absolutes in this here world on this here planet. There's a time to kill. A time to steal. A time to... punish. Until you've got a better plan to control human behavior, it is what it is. I wonder what they do with such people in a Middle Eastern Muslim society... if such a person even exists at all.
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Originally Posted by W James III
We as a society have created an environment of fear and hate to the point that Sex offenders instead of reaching out for help and admitting they have problems will simply hide and continue acting on impulses until they are caught.
This is a statement that gives me heartburn. I don't getcha... at all. Are you a victim type person?
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Originally Posted by W James III
So you believe in God yet you are quick to pass judgment and condemnation on others?
No, I don't believe in God. I know God. Yes, you g-damned right I judge and condemn where it's necessary. I'm a hand's-on type person. The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it.
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Originally Posted by W James III
I don’t want this to go into a religious direction (which I think is against the rules) so I will leave it at that, my point is maybe the golden rule should be considered and that maybe having some understanding for others who have such affliction’s is a way to thank your “God” for not being in the same situation as those people who you’re condemning.
You can play by whatever rules you want. God is not a religious direction, He is That which Manifests existence. Also the pure potentiality... the Void... That which is was and always will be.
Is being a pedophile being God-like? Does it meet the moral standards of our day? If you want to talk about rules to play by, there's free will. We all have it, by design. When our free will affects others and causes others harm, it's gonna cause reactions, repercussions and consequences.
If you're a pedophile or a sex offender, it sucks to be you. You're going to be sought out and caught be people trained to catch you. I hear these folks aren't treated too kindly in jail/prison either.
How do we prevent them from ever existing might be a good thread for you to start... or how to have compassion for them.
But for respect to the OP, I meant every word when I said they should be; "they should be castrated, chastity belted, put into a straight jacket, muzzled, and microchipped. I would maybe add, colonization."
WJamesIII-where are your sources, research, counseling (SRC) statistics which started this up roar. If you don't have SRC, fine. But now, I do find it worrisome because this is your thought process compared what you learned through SRC. Creating IDEAS to solve problems is dangerous, facts are always better because they are proven valid.
Finally, let's put the "mature card" away. I have NOT been rude, I am simply pointing out facts about your posts which seem to affect your blood pressure. "Don't have a cow, man." If you don't stand by your IDEAS, then recant. We want, "Just the facts."
Ummm... no I'm not. Pedophilia or any sexual offense/assault is unacceptable behavior and it needs to be thwarted/punished/eliminated.
That was a rhetorical question but since you felt the need to answer it,
I agree it needs to be thwarted/punished/eliminated as well, I just don’t agree with your solution that a bullet to the head is going to solve it. Sure it will prevent that one person from ever acting again but it still won’t solve the problem.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
Like others have said on here, plenty of bullets. At very least, we'll deal with them as things manifest. In the mean time, we can sit back and say, "Wow! It sure sucks for them there pedophiles.
Yes we sure can, but all that will do is escalate the violence. Solving any problem with violence is never the answer. What will you do when the family of the sex offender retaliates against the family who killed their son?
Two wrongs don’t make a right, and the fact you’re promoting the murder of anyone clearly defines you as a person.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
Your argument is really stupid here. Downs Syndrome is nothing like pedophilia.
I never said it was, my point which you clearly missed was that Down Syndromes is a hereditary and generic disorder, therefore your could lock up all the people with Downs Syndrome or as you promote (killing them) but the reality is within the week another child somewhere in the world would be born with this genetic disorder.
My argument was the same applies to pedophiles. You could lock them lock up all the people who were known pedophiles or as you promote (killing them) but the reality is within the week another child somewhere would be born with this genetic disorder and grow up as a pedophile.
Therefore I wasn’t comparing the two disorders as having any similarities other than both are genetic disorders. My argument was that until we as a society have the medical technology to determine that particular gene which causes such abnormalities there is no way to prevent a person from being born a predestined pedophile.
If you would take time and go back and read an entire discussion in a thread before posting maybe you would have seen this and understand.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
But this is a very specific and real symptom that law enforcement and corrections looks for in sex offenders and a gauge to how they are doing with treatment/rehabilitation.
Manipulation? Wow that’s news to me, so are you saying that manipulation is the real symptom of criminal behavior?
If so every politician and LEO would be criminals, although many people consider them to be they use manipulation all the time at levels far above the normal person yet they are above your manipulation theory huh?
I’m not dismissing the fact that you have a valid point that most criminals are manipulative, I am just saying that I can point to other examples of people being highly manipulative and their behavior isn’t considered criminal so to say being manipulative is the predetermining factors is in my opinion out of line.
As for using manipulation as a gauge of determining the effectiveness of treatment for sex offenders is almost idiotic. I mean sure why wouldn’t they be manipulative, hell if I was put in a no win situation I would probably be manipulative too.
What I mean by that is pedophiles are genetically born that way, there is no treatment that can cure who they are, the only treatment is to control their behavior so sure they will be manipulative to some extent and to so for the experts or anyone else to think otherwise would be a faulty assumption.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
The one thing that can be done with these sick and twisted folks for treatment is put them in with other convicted sex offenders and let the experienced offenders working with the law enforcement gauge where the subject offenders are with their treatment. If they're at a high risk for reoffending, they are dealt with accordingly. If they are on probation, they have to do what's neccessary to have freedoms such as living at large and amongst us. There are places they can't live, they need to report to certain people their condition, work certain places, take drug and alcohol tests, have random home visits and have their drawers/computer/home thoroughly checked. If they're on parole, the same kinds of things. They may have a GPS ankle braclet and be monitored to and from work. Much can be done to try to note their progress/regression.
I agree that a lot can be done but I will say that a lot isn’t being done affectively. I personally think if a sex offender has to be on a GPS bracelet they are not safe enough to be on the street, they should be in a community home or in jail.
I have no issue locking them all up or sending them to a special government funded community to live in that’s supported by tax dollars but tagging them like wild animals with GPS and the registration and living restrictions is all pointless to me. I mean if they are a threat regardless of where they live or if they are registered they will re-offend again.
I think my largest concern comes from the fact that if society can justify removing constitutional rights from one group of people regardless of who that group is, then it becomes a slippery slope. Where is the line drawn, and I am fearful that we as a society have surrendered our freedoms for the greater good of a security that we can never be guaranteed to have. I think I am getting off topic but that’s where my real concern comes from.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
Frankly, it's none of their nor your business what they/we think. There's no absolutes in this here world on this here planet. There's a time to kill. A time to steal. A time to... punish. Until you've got a better plan to control human behavior, it is what it is. I wonder what they do with such people in a Middle Eastern Muslim society... if such a person even exists at all.
I am going to use you’re argument here in reverse, you say the world is what it is and frankly its nobody’s business what you/me think about sex offenders, there are no absolutes in this world so they will do what they want to, and there is a time for everything as you say, a time to kill, a time to steal, and maybe a time for sex offenders to molest children.
Do you see how faulty this thinking is? There should never be a time to kill unless its self defense, there should never be a time to steal, or rape or molest. And although the world is what it is then if you profess to what you said above why are then so unforgiving when it comes to others and feel they should believe like you do? You don’t have to answer this I am simply trying to pint out you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
As for you claim how would such a thing be handled in the middle east I think it’s more acceptable in Muslim countries if it’s between a man and a little girl although the western cultural influence is changing that old perspective. If you are gay or if it’s a man and a boy they behead you. Little morally conflicting to say it’s ok to have sex with a little girl of 8 years of age but two adult men who want to be gay is a moral crime. Hmm glad you brought up the Muslim Middle East views. The clerics are fighting this proposed age of consent. Read the article
This is a statement that gives me heartburn. I don't getcha... at all. Are you a victim type person?
I read an article once that addressed this issue it was rather interesting and informative I will try to find it and post it. I am not a “Victim” type person but I at least look at any debate from all sides, and the difficulty here in such a sensitive topic is one can easily become a target for simply trying to look at all sides.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
No, I don't believe in God. I know God. Yes, you g-damned right I judge and condemn where it's necessary. I'm a hand's-on type person. The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it.
I think religious discussions are off limits by board rules so I think I will leave the religion aspects out of any discussion and use the term “beliefs”
There are some people who have “beliefs” while others don’t, and while some who have them also justify such behavior under “belief” doctrines. The FLDS in Texas where the compound was raided in 2008 is just one example of how some people’s “beliefs” allow them to justify certain actions while other condemn such “beliefs”
Again I am not taking sides I am simply debating the issue and raising both sides in the argument.
You can play by whatever rules you want. God is not a religious direction, He is That which Manifests existence. Also the pure potentiality... the Void... That which is was and always will be.
Call it what you want but I am not going there.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
Is being a pedophile being God-like? Does it meet the moral standards of our day? If you want to talk about rules to play by, there's free will. We all have it, by design. When our free will affects others and causes others harm, it's gonna cause reactions, repercussions and consequences.
I can’t answer this question except for what my beliefs are, a pedophile apparently has their own belief structure so to ask whether being a pedophile is God-like might not make it in my book others who have their own book might feel differently.
Your argument is that society is requiring all others to live at a moral standard based on certain beliefs even if that forces some to make changes to their beliefs because the greater number of others feel it is the way to live.
I pointed out two examples of this above, that in Saudi Arabia it’s customary for older men to take child brides. Although I personally do not understand and condom this tradition who am I to push my beliefs onto another culture or people.
The FLDS is the other example I pointed to as they removed themselves from society and live amongst themselves and their beliefs, but yet they were raided in order to conform to laws and statutes that say they cannot practice their “Belief’s”. I don’t chose to live by either belief system therefore I don’t live in Saudi or on a FLDS compound. As you said the world is what it is.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
If you're a pedophile or a sex offender, it sucks to be you. You're going to be sought out and caught be people trained to catch you. I hear these folks aren't treated too kindly in jail/prison either.
Yea it would be. It would also suck to be a black person in the south in the days of segregation, or a poor person disabled person who can’t afford a bowl of soup or the hundreds of others who are discriminated and treated badly because certain others feel they are better than others regardless of who they are. But the world is what it is.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
How do we prevent them from ever existing might be a good thread for you to start... or how to have compassion for them.
A new thread is doable but it’s not necessary because it’s really simple. The only way of preventing pedophiles from existing is through genetics, therefore until that time when medical technology is able to remove that one predetermined gene there are no other solutions except aborting babies who have tested positive for the gene. Then we are playing God or Hitler but at least our children will be safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
But for respect to the OP, I meant every word when I said they should be; "they should be castrated, chastity belted, put into a straight jacket, muzzled, and microchipped. I would maybe add, colonization."
You are entitled to your opinion just as eveyone else is.
I have stated mine as well and so I conclude this debate is over
WJamesIII-where are your sources, research, counseling (SRC) statistics which started this up roar. If you don't have SRC, fine. But now, I do find it worrisome because this is your thought process compared what you learned through SRC. Creating IDEAS to solve problems is dangerous, facts are always better because they are proven valid.
Finally, let's put the "mature card" away. I have NOT been rude, I am simply pointing out facts about your posts which seem to affect your blood pressure. "Don't have a cow, man." If you don't stand by your IDEAS, then recant. We want, "Just the facts."
You are still trying to avoid responding to my several posts where I have asked you to cite a source or make a public correction to your false and misleading statements and here you are now asking me to cite statistical sources on opinions I’ve reached based on my own research.
In my posts within this thread I have supplied four links to back up certain claims I have made in my arguments and you haven’t cited one post where you claimed I said something that I didn’t, nor would you make a public correction to your erroneous lies so how can you expect others take anything you say seriously when you won’t do what you ask others to do, or at least correct the record?
I am not upset or have high blood pressure I just have more important things to do than to argue with someone who claims to want facts but then won’t correct his own lies when called out on them.
You are not here to honestly debate anything based on what I have seen therefore I am finished with debating you and its pointless trying to.
Wow I just noticed in another thread there are two people with very similar names and I have apparently confused the two assuming they were the same here in this very thread by not paying close attention to their names when responding. Therefore I was responding to two different people and conversations assuming they were the same person thus problay pisisng one of you off when i was saying soemthing tha had nothing to do with you but was directed at the other person.
I have just noticed my error and wanted to post a public correction that my conversations here might have been misunderstood and a bit back and forth, I apologize for this and here are the two names and how similar they are, again my apologies for not paying closer attention.
Hey w James the 3rd, I'm on a cell phone now, so I won't get into all the gaslighting, red herring and ducking you've been doing with me and others here.
I've received more + reps in my two posts here than I've received in the month of February... so I can't rep y'all back yet, so... thanks in advance.
I'm sorry w James that I didn't read all your post, but I have a life and less is more in this case.
Hey w James the 3rd, I'm on a cell phone now, so I won't get into all the gaslighting, red herring and ducking you've been doing with me and others here.
I've received more + reps in my two posts here than I've received in the month of February... so I can't rep y'all back yet, so... thanks in advance.
I'm sorry w James that I didn't read all your post, but I have a life and less is more in this case.
Please do get into the “gas lighting, red herring and ducking” you claim I am doing. I respond to every person and point that is raised in this thread that has been directed to me for a response. I am not leaving the kitchen because it’s hot in here.
I’m so proud of you for the rep points you are claiming to have received, do you want a treat, or just an attaboy? Please get over yourself
So you have a life and less is more but you have time to pop in and dismiss someone who raises a valid rebuttal but you don’t have time to respond to the rebuttal in the debate.
Again shows your mentality,
You are for killing people, judging others, torture, removing constitutional rights from others who you think are less than you because they have a mental disorder, and yet you are suggesting I am the one with issues.
Immature innuendos and trying to derail a thread with personal attacks disguised as questions indicate you can’t hold a debate based on facts and have to resort to such tactics.
Yes I agree a psychological trauma does occur at the time of the violation; however the level of such trauma is different in each case, and is based on several factors.
These factors include (but not limited to) the child’s age, sex, maturity level, type of violation, and home structure, and education.
I never said that there wasn’t any psychological damage at the time of the violation, or that mitigating the type of violation was in order, what I said is that a great deal of the psychological damage is caused after the incident and is also based on society’s views of such acts themselves.
I did NOT suggest that society needed to change their beliefs or was arguing for the defense of offenders I was simply pointing out a fact that societies views play a huge role in the psychological problems victims face, this is not my option this is again based on studies that can be found by doing a simple Google search.
Children often feel self guilt for their attack, or that somehow they did something to warrant their attack. They also know it’s considered “dirty” and this is why there is often shame then associated with their violation.
Fear comes into play when having to report their abuse, especially if it’s a family member and a whole host of other psychological and emotion scenarios. Therefore the fact is that most of the psychological damage arises after the actually incident. The incident is the trigger and although it is a bad trigger even later issues can be far more damaging psychologically such as severe and debilitating depression that can lead to suicide because the stigma of such abuse.
First of all, this thread is kind of mind numbing and sad and so I may not stick around to debate, but here goes...
I am not trying to derail this thread. On this forum, and in person, I will argue to the verbal death anyone who feels that pedophilia might not be a serious and very disturbing offense. From your posts, I did interpret you as one of these people. You've explained your position a lot on this thread and some people seem to agree with you, more don't. Whatever. I have never felt personal attacked on any thread even when people lashed out at me lame or a "liberal." So if you feel personally attacked, that's all on you. I personally think I have a great debating style and your opinion doesn't count at all, as I'm sure my opinion of you is irrelevant in your world.
All that said- when it comes to a child who has been abused on any level, no, they might not register it as something criminal or horrendous after the act. Children are pretty resilient. But, facts do show (as do countless social work programs, rehabilitation centers and therapy) that these "acts" do lodge in a child's psyche....causing disturbance later on (not because society demands that they realize the horror and "get mad" but because when they grow up and look back, these memories hurt just as much as the act). The fact that many people who molest children were once molested themselves attests to the extreme danger that this whole cycle poses. Abused individuals often later become abusers.
A child does not have to know that sexual abuse is dirty to feel horrible when it happens to them. There are families who live with generations of abuse and quietly allow it to happen and these kids are often not very well adapted at all. There is also research to show the extremely damaging physical changes that happen to girls who are abused.
The "stigma of such abuse" exists for a really good reason. That stigma needs to remain in place and be strengthened.
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