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It’s amazing to me how many times I hear white people talk about how racist their parents were….but never mention the ramifications upon black people that this racism had. They talk about their racist parents as if they never left the house or as if none of it rubbed off on themselves.....(Its not your fathers racism, just like its not your fathers Buick, but its still the same make and model....only with modern styling for the times). Their racism was simply confined to comments made about black people….and that’s it. Nope….your parents were oppressors. When they left the house with that racism, they sabotage and denied opportunity to black people likely every chance they got, depending on how much power and authority they had. This oppression then limited and stunted the opportunity for black people. Yet……..ignorant people like yourself act as if blacks are in a position of inequality primarily because of laziness and irresponsibility……ignoring the oppression that your parents generation is responsible for....and not seeing your own.
I can only hope that one day your children recognize your ignorance as you have half-way recognized the ignorance of your parents. However, somehow I don’t think so.
Your post was an example of "drive by ignorance" of cowards. Hit then run and hide....lol
I agree that the modern problem is the high correlation of race and poverty and also agree that it is historically driven. Then the math-magicians with their GED point to race being the issue when it's actually correlated to poverty.
The issue though is that blacks have made in-roads into US middle and upper class which makes race based scholarships etc. problematic. That's why you see (and rightly so) a shift towards need based and background based programs.
In this day and age, among younger whites, no one cares if Bruce the black electrical engineer moves in next door. They just don't want Bruce the white or black or asian meth-dealer to move in next door. It's becoming more and more about social class and less about race in the US but thats a slow change but a fascinating topic.
What do you mean separate culture? Black people in America were stripped of their African culture long ago. Our culture is distinctly American, just like what is true for white Americans. Any difference in our American culture is born from forced segregation and discrimination. We practice the same religions. We speak the same language, we eat the same foods (Soul food is just Southern Food)…etc. If blacks and whites have a different culture, after 300 years in this nation, that’s really an indictment against this nation. Really….this is how it was designed to be by whites from the start. Separate and unequal! This condition and seperation is by design.
(I read the rest of your posts i just quoted this one)
so you're blaming me for racism...thanks, i'll be sure never to add you to my friendslist on facebook.
and no america is not a CULTURE america is the MELTING POT of cultures, look it up, and by the way if you're black and move into an all white neighborhood, with your prejudices, you'd be uncomfortable. and you'd alienate all your white friends because you blame anyone with white skin for racism...i don't appreciate that. i don't deny that bad things happened in the past, but if you're german should you spank yourself nightly because of the holocaust? no.
so as an innocent white/hispanic guy, i will not make any effort to move into a neighborhood where i don't fit in or feel comfortable.
I agree that the modern problem is the high correlation of race and poverty and also agree that it is historically driven. Then the math-magicians with their GED point to race being the issue when it's actually correlated to poverty.
The issue though is that blacks have made in-roads into US middle and upper class which makes race based scholarships etc. problematic. That's why you see (and rightly so) a shift towards need based and background based programs.
In this day and age, among younger whites, no one cares if Bruce the black electrical engineer moves in next door. They just don't want Bruce the white or black or asian meth-dealer to move in next door. It's becoming more and more about social class and less about race in the US but thats a slow change but a fascinating topic.
I agree with what you say about the younger generation not caring, to the same degree, as their parents did. However, I think when the current generation of white kids gets older and start having families, careers and the like; they will become much more “conservative”. Right now young white kids are into cool and blacks, through music and entertainment, are establishing cool. So young white people are actually attracted to black people because they want to be cool or seen as cool, which for some manifest in hanging around blacks, listening to hip hop, dressing a certain way. Youth are just trying to have fun. The question is what happens when they decide to get more serious about life and that is when they will start following the template of their parents.
In regards to scholarships and needs based, I would tend to agree to a certain extent. I agree based upon the impact of “classism”. There is not an even playing field at birth due to class. People from poor backgrounds, regardless of color, should be helped and given extra consideration. However, the damage done to black people by years of oppression was not simply economics, but also psychological and cultural. Think of it this way. Let’s say a couple has two children. One is denigrated, abused and put down from birth, based upon the color of his eyes or something, while the other child is treated lovingly and embraced. Much more often than not, such a scenario will result in low self esteem and achievement for the denigrated child, relative to the favored child. They both grew up in a household with the same family income….yet; they are not in the same predicament based upon how they were treated differently. Now, ask what happens to a people denigrated for 3 centuries, based upon their race? The damage is more than economic.
People with esteem issues need reasons to believe in themselves. They take failure harder than those with a healthy self esteem. They need victories and accomplishments to reprogram their self image and worth. So being accepted at the University of Michigan or some other prestigious school, for historically oppressed groups, is very powerful and is the type of achievement that helps offset and undue the damage done to black esteem through centuries of denigration and opportunities denied. When other black people see black people in prestigious places, among the elites, they began to BELIEVE that it is possible for them too which helps them to aspire to greater things. The most dominant visual demonstration of black success in this country, before the first black president, was sports and entertainment, which is why the dreams of most black youth revolve around being sports stars, rappers and the like, and not being doctors, scientist, Engineers and the like.
That having been said, programs like AA and others are not really what the country needed. What the country needed to do was to develop a Marshall Plan to undo the damage that it did to black America. That should have been done in the 60’s when the last vestiges of legal oppression were dismantled. Now complications have developed from not having properly treated oppression, which are not directly related to race and make it harder to fix. I am a strong believer that you cannot solve specific problems Using non specificity as a strategy. You cannot target a people for oppression, for 3 centuries, and reconcile the ramifications without targeting the group for a cure or treatment. Yet....to do so creates crys of reverse racism and discrimination from whites, which helps to preserve the inequality. Now....given that you are the MATH guy....what happens to a mathematical equality once you do something differnent to the left side of the operator than you do to the right side? The answer is that you create an inequality....right? So now let me ask you how you would mathematically return the equation to an equality without treating the two sides differently? You cannot! Hence, its illogical to argue that the damage done to black people can be solved without targeting black people to fix it.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-22-2010 at 09:09 AM..
(I read the rest of your posts i just quoted this one)
so you're blaming me for racism...thanks, i'll be sure never to add you to my friendslist on facebook.
and no america is not a CULTURE america is the MELTING POT of cultures, look it up, and by the way if you're black and move into an all white neighborhood, with your prejudices, you'd be uncomfortable. and you'd alienate all your white friends because you blame anyone with white skin for racism...i don't appreciate that. i don't deny that bad things happened in the past, but if you're german should you spank yourself nightly because of the holocaust? no.
so as an innocent white/hispanic guy, i will not make any effort to move into a neighborhood where i don't fit in or feel comfortable.
(please remove the chip from your shoulder)
There is a topic in this “Great debate” forum that deals with “Logical Fallacies” that people hate when used in arguments.
Please read that topic and its threads, for you are certainly a purveyor of logical fallacies in this rebuttal. The use of logical fallacies, and so many, is a clear sign of disingenuousness, if not ignorance. For example, when did I accuse YOU, of being guilty of anything? You are using hyperbole when you employ the fallacy of composition to construct a straw man fallacy about what my thesis was/is, in order that you can then caste aspersions upon it. The fallacy of composition argues that what is true for the whole is true of all its parts or members. Thus, when I make a statement about white society as a whole, you bring out hyperbole and suggest that I am talking about every white person, which is never stated and don’t believe. That’s the straw man. You are saying that I have indicted YOU, because you are a member of the group, because you are saying that my thesis was premised upon ALL white people, which I never did.
So before you comment again……study debate and make sure your entire response is not predicated upon cascading logical fallacies.
(I read the rest of your posts i just quoted this one)
so you're blaming me for racism...thanks, i'll be sure never to add you to my friendslist on facebook.
and no america is not a CULTURE america is the MELTING POT of cultures, look it up, and by the way if you're black and move into an all white neighborhood, with your prejudices, you'd be uncomfortable. and you'd alienate all your white friends because you blame anyone with white skin for racism...i don't appreciate that. i don't deny that bad things happened in the past, but if you're german should you spank yourself nightly because of the holocaust? no.
so as an innocent white/hispanic guy, i will not make any effort to move into a neighborhood where i don't fit in or feel comfortable.
(please remove the chip from your shoulder)
I agree with everything you say. The thing about someone of German ancestry feeling guilt (spanking himself) about the Holocaust is a valid point. Ironically, a white person feeling guilty about slavery could be termed an example of self-racism. The same would be true if a black person felt guilt due to black crime statistics, or an Asian feeling guilt for Pearl Harbor. It is guilt by racial association.
However there is a movement in America to have a multicultural American social structure and not a melting pot social structure. A multicultural society approves of cultural separation (neighborhooods, clubs, publications, perhaps even schools). A melting pot social structure pursues integration and assimilation of all people into a central culture. With a melting pot social structure, people not part of the mainstream culture (immigrants and those disinfranchised) would become part of the larger culture while contributing small but (in the case of new immigrants) constant changes to the larger culture.
I agree with everything you say. The thing about someone of German ancestry feeling guilt (spanking himself) about the Holocaust is a valid point. Ironically, a white person feeling guilty about slavery could be termed an example of self-racism. The same would be true if a black person felt guilt due to black crime statistics, or an Asian feeling guilt for Pearl Harbor. It is guilt by racial association.
However there is a movement in America to have a multicultural American social structure and not a melting pot social structure. A multicultural society approves of cultural separation (neighborhooods, clubs, publications, perhaps even schools). A melting pot social structure pursues integration and assimilation of all people into a central culture. With a melting pot social structure, people not part of the mainstream culture (immigrants and those disinfranchised) would become part of the larger culture while contributing small but (in the case of new immigrants) constant changes to the larger culture.
I don't know how "guilt" entered the discussion of causes and effects. The issue of guilt is simply obfuscation and misdirection....if not fillibustering. Whether Germans feel guilt or not it does not change the 6 million Jews killed and the subsequent creation of the State of Isreal and the chain reaction that has had in regards to tensions in the Middle East. Actions produce reactions and that is all that I have argued. Whether the group who created the actions that triggered the reactions should or should not feel guilt is irrelevent.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-22-2010 at 12:05 PM..
I agree with what you say about the younger generation not caring, to the same degree, as their parents did. However, I think when the current generation of white kids gets older and start having families, careers and the like; they will become much more “conservative”. Right now young white kids are into cool and blacks, through music and entertainment, are establishing cool. So young white people are actually attracted to black people because they want to be cool or seen as cool, which for some manifest in hanging around blacks, listening to hip hop, dressing a certain way. Youth are just trying to have fun. The question is what happens when they decide to get more serious about life and that is when they will start following the template of their parents.
In regards to scholarships and needs based, I would tend to agree to a certain extent. I agree based upon the impact of “classism”. There is not an even playing field at birth due to class. People from poor backgrounds, regardless of color, should be helped and given extra consideration. However, the damage done to black people by years of oppression was not simply economics, but also psychological and cultural. Think of it this way. Let’s say a couple has two children. One is denigrated, abused and put down from birth, based upon the color of his eyes or something, while the other child is treated lovingly and embraced. Much more often than not, such a scenario will result in low self esteem and achievement for the denigrated child, relative to the favored child. They both grew up in a household with the same family income….yet; they are not in the same predicament based upon how they were treated differently. Now, ask what happens to a people denigrated for 3 centuries, based upon their race? The damage is more than economic.
People with esteem issues need reasons to believe in themselves. They take failure harder than those with a healthy self esteem. They need victories and accomplishments to reprogram their self image and worth. So being accepted at the University of Michigan or some other prestigious school, for historically oppressed groups, is very powerful and is the type of achievement that helps offset and undue the damage done to black esteem through centuries of denigration and opportunities denied. When other black people see black people in prestigious places, among the elites, they began to BELIEVE that it is possible for them too which helps them to aspire to greater things. The most dominant visual demonstration of black success in this country, before the first black president, was sports and entertainment, which is why the dreams of most black youth revolve around being sports stars, rappers and the like, and not being doctors, scientist, Engineers and the like.
That having been said, programs like AA and others are not really what the country needed. What the country needed to do was to develop a Marshall Plan to undo the damage that it did to black America. That should have been done in the 60’s when the last vestiges of legal oppression were dismantled. Now complications have developed from not having properly treated oppression, which are not directly related to race and make it harder to fix. I am a strong believer that you cannot solve specific problems Using non specificity as a strategy. You cannot target a people for oppression, for 3 centuries, and reconcile the ramifications without targeting the group for a cure or treatment. Yet....to do so creates crys of reverse racism and discrimination from whites, which helps to preserve the inequality. Now....given that you are the MATH guy....what happens to a mathematical equality once you do something differnent to the left side of the operator than you do to the right side? The answer is that you create an inequality....right? So now let me ask you how you would mathematically return the equation to an equality without treating the two sides differently? You cannot! Hence, its illogical to argue that the damage done to black people can be solved without targeting black people to fix it.
You need to parse your arguments as these novels get to be a lot to read and respond to.
Whites turn into conservative racists as they age? Not even going to dignify that one.
We generally agree on AA.
I feel that everyone needs to take some responsibility for the problems.
Are you still arguing that it's ok to be racist if you aren't white? Yes or no?
P.S. You ignored my post about current racism in Africa.
Indentured Servant---this will be my last post to you because you are a bigot in your own way...you called me racist...I see you as bigoted against the white race. Please read the link I have left for you below. Part of it talks about how "we" as in blacks today, can't blame white people anymore. It could help take that chip off your shoulder and truly help you get rid of the anger you carry around. Too much anger can make you sick...
Why is it that today's generation is supposed to pay (literally and figuratively) for what happened in the PAST? Why is it that? Are we supposed to take responsibility for the stupid slave owners in the South simply because we live in the South and are white? If my great, great Grandpa was into stringing black men into trees it becomes OUR fault?
I HATE this bs...just because I had racist parents doesn't make ME a racist and it's taught me to teach my children how to live in this world. I was smart enough to rise above it....you may never rid yourself of your racism and to me, that's sad....
What I am is a realist and what is real today is that you CAN NOT have an all white city without someone crying racism. You can NOT have all white scholarships because someone will cry racism. You can NOT have an all white anything because these days it just doesn't fly because NO public official wants their name affiliated with that ugly word. I'm not ASKING for these things or saying I WANT these things, I'm merely stating fact. FACT...
I'll say it one more time to "Indentured Servant" (LOL, interesting name). You want to make a difference in this world, take the words of Bill Cosby and other great black men like him and DO something about it instead of playing the blame game. Telling us, in so many words how unfair your world is doesn't really help....not when all around us, every day on the news, etc., I see black on black crime, black on white crime, burglaries and armed robberies on the rise by young, black men. White people commit crime as well, but again, the stats don't lie.
I don't wish to live in an all white city....I wish to live in a SAFE city...with diversity and equality. That's almost funny, or sad....because there are very few safe cities and though many may be diverse, none are equal.
If I can make a difference in just one way it is to teach my children in a different way than my parents taught me. BUT, THEY see the same news I do, they read....they see what's happening in the inner cities and the suburbs.
What's NOT fair is that there isn't equality, for ANYONE!!!!! Doesn't matter your race, color, creed, or nationality...there is racism (or predjudice) against people with big boobs---they must be w hores or stupid, blondes are stupid (blonde jokes), fat people are lazy slobs, hispanics are all gardeners and illegal and all black young men who wear their "pants on the ground" are trouble.
So, the problem isn't unique to one culture, because in one way or another we are all discriminated against.
For everyone crying, whining, complaining, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT and stop the blame game. If anything, it's your own race's complacency that is the root of TODAY'S PROBLEM...I am not talking about the 1950's, I am talking about today!
There ARE programs for everyone out there, period. It's your choice if you are going to take advantage of them or if you're going to live out the stupid stereotypes.
Running your trap about how badly the PAST has been does nothing for TODAY.
There is a topic in this “Great debate” forum that deals with “Logical Fallacies” that people hate when used in arguments.
Please read that topic and its threads, for you are certainly a purveyor of logical fallacies in this rebuttal. The use of logical fallacies, and so many, is a clear sign of disingenuousness, if not ignorance. For example, when did I accuse YOU, of being guilty of anything? You are using hyperbole when you employ the fallacy of composition to construct a straw man fallacy about what my thesis was/is, in order that you can then caste aspersions upon it. The fallacy of composition argues that what is true for the whole is true of all its parts or members. Thus, when I make a statement about white society as a whole, you bring out hyperbole and suggest that I am talking about every white person, which is never stated and don’t believe. That’s the straw man. You are saying that I have indicted YOU, because you are a member of the group, because you are saying that my thesis was premised upon ALL white people, which I never did.
So before you comment again……study debate and make sure your entire response is not predicated upon cascading logical fallacies.
i've read that forum and i've quoted it to other people. heres your first statement in this thread
Quote:
I think we are at a critical juncture in America in regards to race relations. Historically, whites have been the antagonist and black the protagonist. This has left a stain upon the moral image of white America and white America is desperate to hide that stain. That’s the problem. White’s efforts are at covering up the stain and not cleaning up the stain.
your first statement is a straw man argument, setting up white people as the bad guy. no one before you did that because the inital argument isn't black people against whites, so your premise was "lets hate whitey" and your subsequent arguments were all supporting that premise.
so the next time you want to go aristotelian on me with your "logical fallacies" make sure your agrument is logically sound, k Spock?
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