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Before our debate begins, I would like to set aside these concerns about "losing" and "winning". You stated that you are not schooled in formal debate. Well, neither am I. So neither of us is in a real position to declare ourselves the winner. Each reader will decide in his or her own mind anyway. I am not interested in putting you down or insulting you. Let's just forget about some of these other people's posts which seem to be about one-upsmanship. I am not interested in that. This is a good, worthwhile topic which I want to approach without personal animosity and without playing word games. I have no doubt that you will join me in that same attitude.
I am not schooled in formal debate but I am schooled in logic. There does exist valid and invalid at the extremes and various degrees between. I provided a list of logical fallacies that serves as a metric for whether a point or counter point should be accepted as valid, invalid or spurious. Words also have definitions and meanings, which is another means establishing an objective framework. I subjective debate is pointless. Objective ground rules needs to be established and this is why I offered the use of a fallacy list and requested that terms be objectively defined, if they are ambiguous or mean different things to different people.
okay, so what is the point of this thread?What gives you, Indentured Servant, the "godly" right to swoop in and create what is basically a sub-forum within this forum, complete with your own set of rules and guidelines? you who barely has the post numbers and rep points to meet your own criteria?.
just my first impression from first post , maybe this thread is tongue in cheek because the highest rep counts are in relationship and other topics & such forums while the most helpful members such as in state forums have much lower rep-post ratios
". I will choose the person who has the highest reputation points as the person I will debate. "
folks who joke around alot =serial posters have the most it seems so maybe the op is making a point or something???????
If my position wins....then so does the integrity and image of black people. My postion is in defense of the equal humanity and capacity of black people. Its not about me as an individual. If one accepts that premise of black equal humanity and capacity, then what explains black poverty being 3 times that of whites, black unemployment being 2 times more than whites, black wealth being over 10 times less than whites, black homicides being 8 times more than whites....etc.
I didn't volunteer nor do I have time for a lengthy debate, so I don't know if you'll read my posts or respond, but I have a few points/questions that I think are worthy of being addressed. To be clear, I do agree that the disparity between blacks and whites is largely a consequence of historical systemic racism. I don't agree that present racism is causal today, tho.
Any way, the first issue I'd like to note is the potential effects of prenatal care. I say this because the poorest white mothers I have known simply had better prenatal care; nutrition, access to health care, information, etc, compared to the poor minority women I've known. Many minority children/infants are at a disadvantage, as far as ideal development goes, before they're born.
The second thing I'm curious about, which is a result of historical racism imo, is a culture without roots and history. I say this, again, based on my own experiences with my family and poverty. My grandparents came to this country with nothing (from Italy), they were uneducated, didn't speak the language, etc, but they obviously did not have the same experiences in poverty as the black community. I don't know if culture plays a role, but that's what I took away growing up in my family. We have clear roots, history, values, etc.
Finally, I don't believe winning this debate will improve the image of the black community. It might cause compassion to surface for those capable, but at the end of the day it's unlikely most will care.
just my first impression from first post , maybe this thread is tongue in cheek because the highest rep counts are in relationship and other topics & such forums while the most helpful members such as in state forums have much lower rep-post ratios
". I will choose the person who has the highest reputation points as the person I will debate. "
folks who joke around alot =serial posters have the most it seems so maybe the op is making a point or something???????
rep points is a VERY poor way to choose a "worthy" opponent. like you said, different forums allot a different number of points. you have folks like John1960, who is, in his own right, a valuable member of CDF, but has nearly 7K rep points for mostly posting links to news stories (CDF's "news man" could be his title). who would be preferable for this debate, someone who logged in a ton of rep points posting recipes in the Food forum (nothing against these folks, of course) or someone who has less rep points but has earned most of them posting advice on his/her city's forum? you can't even go by ratio of post number:rep points, because, again, someone who posts 10 responses in Forum ABC may end up with more rep points than someone who posts 10 responses in Forum XYZ, even if they've each been repped by the exact same number of people
sadly, I don't think it was tongue-in-cheek. like I said, this thread was doomed from the word "go" b/c of all the silly rules imposed on it. this thread should just be closed, IMO
I didn't volunteer nor do I have time for a lengthy debate, so I don't know if you'll read my posts or respond, but I have a few points/questions that I think are worthy of being addressed. To be clear, I do agree that the disparity between blacks and whites is largely a consequence of historical systemic racism. I don't agree that present racism is causal today, tho.
Any way, the first issue I'd like to note is the potential effects of prenatal care. I say this because the poorest white mothers I have known simply had better prenatal care; nutrition, access to health care, information, etc, compared to the poor minority women I've known. Many minority children/infants are at a disadvantage, as far as ideal development goes, before they're born. Its like being in the hospital for a gun shot wound (past racism) but remain in the hospital a long time because of an infection (present racism) while in the hospital. The infection did not put you in the hospital (the gunshot wound did), but the infection is helping to keep you there.
The second thing I'm curious about, which is a result of historical racism imo, is a culture without roots and history. I say this, again, based on my own experiences with my family and poverty. My grandparents came to this country with nothing (from Italy), they were uneducated, didn't speak the language, etc, but they obviously did not have the same experiences in poverty as the black community. I don't know if culture plays a role, but that's what I took away growing up in my family. We have clear roots, history, values, etc.
Finally, I don't believe winning this debate will improve the image of the black community. It might cause compassion to surface for those capable, but at the end of the day it's unlikely most will care.
Good luck and carry on!
You make some excellent points. Present racism is not causal, but it is stymieing, if not exacerbating. One could argue that recovery/equality could manifest sooner or more rapidly, if not for present racism, although present racism did not cause the structural socioeconomic disparity. Think of it like being in the hospital for a gunshot wound (past racism), but then contracting an infection after the fact (present racism) that impeds your recovery. The infection is not the cause of you being in the hospital (the gunshot wound is), but the infection is helping to keep you there.
The one thing that I never really seek is to improve the image of black people to anyone other than black people. When you exist in a world that constantly disparages “the black community”, the black community can be conditioned to disparage itself…and it has….as represented by the carnage that takes place in black on black crime and low achievement. If you don't learn to respect who you are and were you come from...and not do the opposite....you can never achieve your full potential. If you shape how a person or group sees itself.....you will shape their outcome.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-25-2010 at 06:15 PM..
just my first impression from first post , maybe this thread is tongue in cheek because the highest rep counts are in relationship and other topics & such forums while the most helpful members such as in state forums have much lower rep-post ratios
". I will choose the person who has the highest reputation points as the person I will debate. "
folks who joke around alot =serial posters have the most it seems so maybe the op is making a point or something???????
How would you then suggest that I pick one person to debate? It has been clarified or refined that I will use the ratio between the two and not the count. However, one should respect the fact that this forum is full of more dissenters to my proposition than it is with those who concu.r (its not even close). Hence, I would be bombarded with responses from multiple posters and the opportunity cost of responding to so many post is one that I am not willing to absorb. Certainly my methods were not perfect, but as I said, they were open to refinement IF THERE WAS A WILL to actually have the debate in the first place. I am pretty sure that the will does not exist for most and they provide other reasons as rationalizations to igore or caste aspersion upon it. However, someone has accepted the challenge and "Its On".
You make some excellent points. Present racism is not causal, but it is stymieing, if not exacerbating. One could argue that recovery/equality could manifest sooner or more rapidly, if not for present racism, although present racism did not cause the structural socioeconomic disparity.
The one thing that I never really seek is to improve the image of black people to anyone other than black people. When you exist in a world that constantly disparages “the black communityâ€, the black community can be conditioned to disparage itself…and it has….as represented by the carnage that takes place in black on black crime and low achievement. If you don't learn to respect who you are and were you come from...and not do the opposite....you can never achieve your full potential. If you shape how a person or group sees itself.....you will shape their outcome.
Yea, and this really needs to come from the inside out, and I just don't see how that's even possible. I think of this woman I know, who dated my late brother, and she has four children. They just left the bronx for Florida at the end of last year. Two of the boys have been left back three times in school. They can't read, have learning disabilities. They're 12, 10, and 7. The girl is 14. They've had poor nutrition all their lives, an uneducated mother, and absent fathers. I have little doubt they're going to end up living crappy lives full of trouble. And they will no doubt breed and have children that are raised the exact same way.
How would you then suggest that I pick one person to debate?
you don't
seriously, it doesn't seem like you really understand the purpose of this forum. it's not a tennis game where you match yourself up w/ someone and everyone else just sit back and observe while you trade points. this forum isn't for you to engage in personal debates w/ a select person. it's for the community to fully engage in a debate, regardless if you, as the OP feel that the community agrees with your point or not. problem is you're trying to strictly control something you can't. again, give your thesis and let anyone and everyone respond and debate as they see fit w/in the topic of that thesis, regardless if you feel they are dissenters or not. because, in case you haven't noticed, this thread is stagnant and no one meeting your original requirements as stepped up to the plate yet
Yea, and this really needs to come from the inside out, and I just don't see how that's even possible. I think of this woman I know, who dated my late brother, and she has four children. They just left the bronx for Florida at the end of last year. Two of the boys have been left back three times in school. They can't read, have learning disabilities. They're 12, 10, and 7. The girl is 14. They've had poor nutrition all their lives, an uneducated mother, and absent fathers. I have little doubt they're going to end up living crappy lives full of trouble. And they will no doubt breed and have children that are raised the exact same way.
How does a nation deal with any crisis? How is the nation dealing with its financial crisis? The means for a society to deal with its societal problems are through laws and policies. The constitution and laws socially engineered our society and its behaviors, through a democratic process. The problem for the black community is that what’s crisis in our communities is not at crisis levels in the nation as a whole, so it never gets properly treated through laws and policies. Black’s, being only 13% of the population in this representative Republic, means we cannot shape laws and policies to socially engineer change that deals with the uniqueness of our condition in degree if not kind (this is where the infection comes into play). It’s like being sick……but given a prescription prescribed to treat someone else’s disease or illness. You need a prescription for what ails you specifically, in degree and kind, and not some generalized prescription. America refused, in this day and age, to prescribe policy and laws specifically for our condition.....such is attacked as "reverse discrimination".
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-25-2010 at 07:01 PM..
Yea, and this really needs to come from the inside out, and I just don't see how that's even possible. I think of this woman I know, who dated my late brother, and she has four children. They just left the bronx for Florida at the end of last year. Two of the boys have been left back three times in school. They can't read, have learning disabilities. They're 12, 10, and 7. The girl is 14. They've had poor nutrition all their lives, an uneducated mother, and absent fathers. I have little doubt they're going to end up living crappy lives full of trouble. And they will no doubt breed and have children that are raised the exact same way.
nothing is set in stone. there are people who have come from similar circumstances and succeeded. hell, my own mother was just barely literate and neither of my parents have much beyond an elementary school level of education, yet I and several of my siblings have managed to graduate from high school and even attended college (2 brothers graduated from college in Canada). so why do some people succeed and some fail, despite all other factors being the same (same race, same socioeconomic background, etc). yes, how people perceive you can affect how you perceive yourself, but this only goes so far. there's an inner resilience (or whatever you can call it) that keeps people in this mentality and prevents them from trying to shrug off those perceptions.
I agree, if you don't learn to respect who you are and where you came from, you can't succeed, but that respect is something that needs to be taught w/in family units and the black community as a whole and will be a hard lesson to learn if some insist on dwelling on past injustices.
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