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The problem with both oil shales and other resources like coal to liquid fuels is that it's only profitable *most* of the time. Right now they could make a killing but if the bottom of the market falls out like it did in late 2007 they are out of business.
Interest in these technologies always picks up when we have high gas prices and that's been going on for decades, it quickly diminishes when the oil prices fall. Because of the volatile oil market it's a risky venture for private investment.
I hate to say it but if the government wanted to be serious about secruing a domestic supply and leveraging prices downwards for conventional oil they could do this by guaranteeing the processors using this tech the difference if the cost of barrel of oil falls below X amount. For coal to liquid fuels you're looking at about $40 or $50 which is half what it's trading for now.
Not more . . . Subsidies?
Really? R E A L L Y?
For Coal / Oil? I have always heard they do not get or need Subsidies.
You would only be providing a subsidy if conventional oil dropped substantially which could possibly never happen again and as we know if it does there is the inevitable spike again. As I said "I hate to say it" but the fact is if you're guaranteeing them $40 to $50 a barrel which is half the cost now? I'm not fan of subsides at all but certainly you could agree it makes economic sense. Oil prices would need to be halved before they see a dime of taxpayer funding.
The benefits are many, you'll drive the cost of conventional oil down substantially and probably most important you'll have secured a domestic source for diesel/jet fuel for the future as oil becomes scarce.
The issue is not about it being cost effective, the issue is the volatile oil market that makes it risky investment in the short term. This tech is coming with or without subsidies, it's not a matter of if but when.
Last edited by thecoalman; 07-11-2011 at 12:46 PM..
Going green & frugality are not long term panacea, but they could buy mankind some transitional time. Unfortunately, our economy, ideology, society, finances, business, etc., etc., etc. are built around ideology of discovery, exploitation and endless growth. Neither of our life supporting social institutions can function in the "frugality" mode. Just read posts of some green enthusiasts on this thread, thermodynamics&ecology be damned we can "green power" human expansionism forever and ever. Go ahead, go green & frugal, hopefully there will be enough of wasteful individuals out there so you could keep your job & green roof over your head.
With some mighty phat, unproven claims -- but let's work from the biggest, most exaggerated number?
40 Billion Barrels.
If, and that is IF -- that all were ALL recovered and ALL went to the US (and none to the world market), and under your "plenty" claim, the US were to continue to use nearly 20 million barrels a day . . . .
40E9 Barrels / 20E6 = 2000 days, or about 5-1/2 years.
Even if real. It is not -- these are all Compounded Best Case projections -- But even if real, where do you get the Water from?
Quote:
The technology to get the oil out of the ground is here now. They have allready did it in small scale efforts. The best part is that they know that the area contains 3 X the known amount of oil that is in Saudi Arabia all under ground here in the USA.
5 and 1/2 years max in Alaska, and pie-in-the-sky on the rest.
And I'd also like to call a big BS Flag on "it offers more jobs to the residents". At least here, that's a total crock! It provides a marginal amount of standard labor/support jobs (many short-term), but it mostly just pulls in a bunch of outside seasonal skilled workers. It's kind of like tourism. The only benefit to the residents is the PFD checks we get when the State "sells out"... and that's only for as long as that pot of gold program lasts. We don't get any other direct power benefit from the crude pumped out of our land/ocean... the oil gets shipped elsewhere and then petro products come back to us with a hefty premium tacked on, we don't currently get much (if any) of the NG that's found in the pockets, nor any coal that's found nearby. But we do get contaminated water and soil, depleted wildlife, altered migration patterns, altered/destroyed habitat, etc etc. It's not in "your backyard" and it "it's such a huge area no one will notice"... but the environment up here is harsh, and needs all that land to support itself sustainably, and since it is in my backyard it does directly negatively affect my survival and quality of life. No minimum wage job is going to keep me warm, fed and healthy!
Just another ploy to get you yuppies to keep spending all of your money. Sort of like Starbucks, they got you guys all figured out. The biggest group that loves to "keep up".
Not all of us are Typcoons like you are Sir and we enjoy going green to help us cut our home operating expenses . And not all of us have an apathetic attitude toward our quickly diminishing national and world energy resources ... the very things your grandchildren and great grandchildren will be dealing with head on in just a few decades .
maybe i wasn't specific enough....mine don't have to "warm up". they are bright as soon as i turn them on. maybe they get brighter, i don't really notice. they are plenty bright enough when i turn them on.
I bought the new bulbs at costco on sale ended up being really inexpensive
the bulbs are fine if a lamp shade covers them but the bulb that goes in the fixture in the bathroom and our bedroom are so bright and the light is just awful.
now i want to stock up on older style bulbs because of the light
not sure about the led light bulbs except they are an arm and a leg
To me, "Green Living" is common sense living.
I recycle as much as I can - but don't use a recycling bin. Plastic grocery bags double as small trash can liners. My cows provide milk and meat - and manure that fertilizes not only their pasture but my garden. In the garden, we get vegies - and the leftovers feed the chickens and cattle. Trees and limbs that my neighbors remove go into the woodstove - as do cardboard boxes, cut small to fit just so; they'll make a fast hot roaring fire even in a blizzard. I damper it down and it burns all night, keeping the house toasty so we don't use our propane heater. If you use seasoned wood, the smoke it emits is white, and barely noticeable. I cook and can our own food, and recycle the jars. We hunt and fish and have a great time.
Do I want to put up a windmill for my own electricity? You bet. Would I like to eventually go off grid? Sure. But I won't as long as I 1) have to pay an arm, a leg, and the left foreleg of a South African wombat to do it, or 2) have to give up normal human comforts like being warm in the winter or eating nothing but wildkill. I'm about as green (save for the windmill) as I'm going to get. My two toyotas get 38 miles to the gallon, and we drive them once a week for supplies. I won't buy an electric car, because I know where electricity comes from, and it isn't from a magic plug in the wall like some folks seem to think, but fossil fuels; the same fossil fuels they are screaming about not using in their cars. When someone invents a tractor that can do the work all day of a diesel, that I can plug into my barn wall to recharge from my windmill, we'll talk. Until then... um, no.
The hysteria about green living is just that - hysteria. I have seen fanatics in holy roller churches that have NOTHING on "greenies" for passion and a refusal to be rational and thoughtful. Common sense and unsubsidized, real applications that save both fossil fuels and money I can get behind; BS ones like ethanol and other fads that cost twice the energy to produce than the nasty old oil and coal won't ever get my support - no matter who believes in global warming, climate change, or the High Priest Al Gore.
This is one of the most intelligent posts I have read in a long time!
To the original question: If it is good for the environment we live and breath in and also helps the economy then it just looks like a "win win" to me. If you're going to spend money then might as well be spending it on green living. Make sure of course it is actually cleaner then spend away in my opinion.
It's a better use of money than buying a pair of designer jeans or shoes don't cha think?
Just another ploy to get you yuppies to keep spending all of your money. Sort of like Starbucks, they got you guys all figured out. The biggest group that loves to "keep up".
For those who disagree with the OP, he really does have a point. If you think government and big business are really interested in "being green" you have completely fallen for the gimmick. It's just a market to them. For the government, it's used as a distraction and a money-maker with nonsense like Carbon Tax.
It's all about money and power for them. It really is. If you think Al Gore is living "green" you have another think coming.
To be honest, I'm more green than anyone else I know and I don't believe in "going green." I live in a big city and to get any greener than me, you have to either be Amish or live off-grid.
I live in a small studio apartment. I don't own a home, car, TV, radio, stereo, dishwasher, microwave, etc., My electric bill is $6 - $11 a month.
I cook from scratch and never pre-packaged meals. My meals never include a can of Cambell's Cream of Anything.
I walk, bike or take city transportation everywhere I go.
I could go on and on but, suffice it to say, I've taken those "How Green Are You?" tests and I've never seen anyone with a lower score than me. The kicker is, I've lived this way for many, many years. I do it NOT because I think it's "green" or "good for the planet" but because it's a very simple, healthy, low-stress lifestyle. We live in an entertainment-driven, instant satisfaction, got to have the latest gadget and gizmo world where everyone wants more and runs around with feelings of self-entitlement.
Now, before blow a gasket thinking I'm anti-planet or anything. I'm not. I think people SHOULD be respectful of the earth. It was a gift, a creation of God's. It's just that what I find laughable is how sudden the whole "green" thing came into being. Humans have been incredibly wasteful and careless for thousands of years and NOW they're concerned?
You and I didn't do this. Even if you littered every day of your life, you are not responsible for the lousy water and air-quality. Big Business and Government are. They did this. Now they blame the people and want to tax people for their own carelessness. And people are buying into it. Its sad.
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