What I wish for this forum (heating, eco-friendly, climate, electric)

[randomparent]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

I don't find these discussion boring or lame, I find some of the ideas to be lame.

My point is you can't find out what works with a bunch of "yes men", you need dissent.

Rather than dissent, I think what's more instructive are concrete examples with which an interested party can experiment.

There's an enormous difference between

1) Here's what I did/tried, and this was the result, and

2) You're an idiot for even thinking about doing a, b, or c.

Unfortunately, at times the forum swings more toward the second than the first, and I think that's what FSM was trying to point out.

So far, I think the best response came from DCForever, who suggested posting what we want to see. I also think that's the key to changing the tone of the forum.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Dakster

is how to make those FINITE resources last longer so that we have time to transition into a more renewable,

As far as the coal as a practical matter it is an infinite resource here in the US. It's inevitable other sources of generating power will supersede it before the supply runs out. This is going to happen with or without government intervention.

"What if we created a better world for nothing?" question comes to my mind. What's the harm?

There is no such thing as a free lunch, this transition needs to be done in a practical and sane matter. Subsidizing solar so Americans can buy Chinese made solar panels is probably not such a great idea.

I will admit, I am not only in trying to do this for the "planet" as a whole, but also for me economically.

The way I was brought up Dakster is you don't waste, I once sat and watched my now 95 year old Grandmother eat an entire apple. Core, seeds etc, the only thing she didn't eat was the stem. She was young during the depression and I guess that never left her. That's the kind of roots I have.

As I believe that by investing in

That's the thing, you don't necessarily need to invest anything. My private garbage hauler will take recyclables for free because they get paid for them. I don't even have to separate them, it's single stream. Most people pay for recycling..... I still pay too because they collect them at the town hall too.

BTW, what does P&OC stand-for? Politicians and Other Criminals?

Politics and Other Controversies forum.

[Lincolnian]

Blog | the Original Green | Steve Mouzon

This link discusses an interesting idea. Storefronts are painted on a building and include chalkboard painted surface that looks like a window where people who actually live in the area can use chalk to write what they would like to see in the space.

The key is that zoning needs to be realistic and work within the communities. Preserving and renovating/repurposing vacant buildings should be the goal to reinvigorate our communities. What good are code revisions if they effectively prevent owners from improving the property due to unfeasible economics? Frugality is a key component of being green.

[OpenD]

What I'd like to see is respectful dialog about ecological awareness, free of the snark and sarcasm and personal attacks that opponents of ecologically aware "Green" life choices espouse.

I am particularly annoyed by "gotcha" posts that regurgitate biased material generated by political opponents to the whole idea of caring for the environment. That kind of anti-Green propaganda does not belong here. They should take that stuff to the Politics & Other Controversies forum.

Respectful dialog and honest questioning leaves room for debate and dissent, but political posturing shuts down actual thinking as it polarizes positions.

In this forum hostility towards Green thinking and ecological sensitivity is inappropriate.

[shadowwalker]

I do get informed news and opinions on here, while most of the time I will do as much as my dwindling paycheck and leisure time will let me without taking from my family in a overly hurtful way. I won't do this just to be able to say "I'm green living" and let the world know.
I know I am not the perfect example, but that is how it is. I see many people around me living almost in poverty and making their families do with out even the basic necessities for a life. And I don't mean new nintindo's, fancy named clothes, $400.00 cell phones, etc. I mean clothes only at salvation army or garage sales, "meat night" being a big deal once a week and eating gruel, bland soups, salads with out dressing and boiled oats for breakfast 365 days a year and more here. I watch the kids long for a trip to town with friends to eat a burger, maybe candy bar, play video game at their houses and more.
I grew up with out much of just the basic things my friends had because of my dad and mom's life style and I sure won't allow that in my home if there is any way I can better that.

[plwhit]

I guess I'm one of the "doubters and questioners".

I got this way when all I was seeing here was a bunch of nodding heads to whatever was posted here no matter how ludicrous the topic or the "facts" posted.

And when I'd question something I was called names and such...

I too would like to see intelligent adult things brought up and discussed rather than BS and everyone else doing this:

[themaster]

Originally Posted by flyingsaucermom

I wish this forum weren't full of doubts and questions of "if" and "is" (is X,Y,Z really worth it???). I wish this forum were full of IDEAS and INSPIRATION of how. The sustainability projects people are involved in, brainstorming for solutions... that sort of thing..

than go find a better forum that's really about "green living"? city-data can't be everything! (though their certainly trying)

When you look at green living for real.. it's hard work and costs money.. sometimes its easy and cheap sure..? but many times.. it's very expensive and not worth the effort to many people..

Personally, I'll take grid power to screwing around with super expensive solar cells and battery power any day.. however if they built a "unlimited power generator" that's costs nothing for fuel and costs about $100.. I'll take 2 one for my home and one for my electric car

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

Destructive criticism is performed with the intention to harm someone, derogate and destroy someone’s idea, creation, prestige, reputation and/or self-esteem in a solely oppositional manner.

Even if you don't personally believe in someone's solution, or even agree that their problem statement is valid or that a solution is even required, you can still offer constructive criticism to help them improve their proposed solution and/or offer them another solution that meets some or all of their stated goals, assumptions and constraints. You can even challenge a goal, assumption or constraint in a non-adversarial way by stating your opinion/reservations but not attempting to force other contributors to agree with you.

Of course, this assumes that one wishes to be collaborative and add to the collective mind share rather than being adversarial and detracting from the collective mind share. A collaborative person can still say "no"; but they are also offering suggestions to pull it to a "yes" or at least a "maybe". They are able to put their personal feelings and beliefs aside (or at least buffer them) in order to help find a workable solution for a particular problem, even if they are not personally invested in the problem or the outcome. The act of solving a problem creates no internal conflict.

People who only offer destructive criticism are personally invested in some feeling or belief that is threatened by any idea, discussion or attempt that opposes it. If they can derail the conversation with negativity and personal attacks, it makes them feel better because it alleviates internal conflict. It's a defense mechanism, that is ultimately unhelpful.

[OpenD]

Thanks for posting that, MissingAll4Seasons... mind if I call you MA4S?

It was disappointing to me to see flyingsaucermom's upbeat thread opener, looking for more collaboration and creativity in the Green Living forum, and a more encouraging intellectual environment here, being met by some of the same negativity and snark she was decrying. It's as though some people just can't help it, and can only think negatively.

In his celebrated book "6 Thinking Hats," Edward de Bono distinguished 6 different modes of thinking about things, and created memory hooks for them by talking about them as different colors of thinking hats. To put one on, you have to take another off.

The Yellow hat helps you to think positively. It is the optimistic viewpoint that helps you to see all the benefits of the decision and the value in it.

The Green Hat stands for creativity. This is where you can develop creative solutions to a problem. It is a freewheeling way of thinking, in which there is little criticism of ideas.

The Red hat is about looking at problems using intuition, gut reaction, and emotion rather than reason. Also trying to think how other people will react emotionally.

White hat thinking has you focus on the data available. Look at the information you have, and see what you can learn from it. Look for gaps in your knowledge, and either try to fill them or take account of them. This is where you analyze past trends, and try to extrapolate from historical data.

Black hat thinking looks at all the bad points. It's cautious and defensive, focusing on everything that might not work. This is important because it highlights the weak points in a plan. It allows you to eliminate them, alter them, or prepare contingency plans to counter them. But too much Black hat mode thinking can crush creativity and innovation, and discourage participation.

And finally, Blue Hat thinking is the executive process of balancing the other modes of thinking. Moderators wear Blue hats.

(Descriptions gratefully adapted from Six Thinking Hats - Decision-Making Skills Training from MindTools.com )

With these distinctions in mind, I found this thread was opened by flyingsaucermom in a Green thinking hat mode, and I'd like to see much more of that here. My personal interests run mostly to the Big Picture stuff, like power generation and alt.fuel vehicles, but I honor those who are focused on how to handle everyday household chores with a light footprint, and I dislike seeing others poke negativity and cynicism at them for it.

I'm personally not a big fan of too much Yellow mode thinking, which is only focused on the positives, and I have no problem at with what you call "respectful dissent" in your special rules for this forum, but far too many posters on this forum seem to ignore what you say there, and what the Terms of Service say, for that matter, and just jump in with Black hat criticism, no matter what ... Attention Posters: Restricted Topics

https://www.city-data.com/forumtos.html

But regardless of orientation or dominant mode of thinking, personal rudeness and insults are always out of line here!

[Dakster]

PLWHIT - I don't think you have to worry about the nodding heads here anymore. Sure hasn't been that way since I found this area of City Data.

While it is not what I was expecting or hoping for - it has produced some lively debates. I have learned a lot about "green energy", ways I can lower my "footprint", and OpenD/DCForever have changed my previously conceived notions on things as well. While I can't afford the big ticket and long ROI things, I do what I can. I hope that counts for something. I like the big picture idea as well. I think that if the big industries and even entities like countries sign on, this will be a better world for it.

Like ShadowWalker - I have to be careful what I do as I don't want to end up taking food out of my kids mouths or clothes off their backs.

I will, however, still state what I think is right. And I hope for more green living ideas to flow from this group.