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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ because of renewables? You know when the prices are low the
first units to get curtailed are the renewable ones right? Really the same thing is happening here. The economy sucks, DSM is have an effect on consumption. if it's not getting used you don't have to make it.....
Summary of the article: German govt mandated more wind & PV power production, thus increasing supply without changing demand---> lower prices for the consumer but high production costs for the conventional producers unchanged.
They're going broke while the govt insists they keep online as backup for the unreliable "alternative energy sources." That's what happens when govt interferes with the free market.
From the article: "In their time of need, energy producers are seeking help from the entity they hold responsible for the whole distorted situation: the German government. The EEG for wind and solar energy is supposed to be counteracted with help for the power plants. The talk is of designing an electricity market, which might sound like a contradiction in terms. The government decided a year ago that a reserve of power plants should stand ready to back up renewable energies."
In order for the conventional coal fired plants to remain operational as backup, they have to burn almost as much coal on standby as they would if they were just producing the power, therefore, minimal environmental benefitaccrues.Pretty stupid.
Summary of the article: German govt mandated more wind & PV power production, thus increasing supply without changing demand---> lower prices for the consumer but high production costs for the conventional producers unchanged.
They're going broke while the govt insists they keep online as backup for the unreliable "alternative energy sources." That's what happens when govt interferes with the free market.
They (Coal) is / was overbuilt and surplus.
Some there -- like here (US) -- need to go off-line and stay off-line.
In the Energy Field the "Free Market" is a domain of Absolute Idiots.
Thank God for at least *some* .gov regulation.
Quote:
In order for the conventional coal fired plants to remain operational as backup, they have to burn almost as much coal on standby as they would if they were just producing the power, therefore, minimal environmental benefitaccrues.Pretty stupid.
Yep. Pretty Stupid.
Past Time to get rid of Conventional Coal Fired Plants.
If they are so married to their dirty coal lignite . . .
Coal Gas would work fine as quick spin-up to provide back-up on the way to 100% Renewable.
Summary of the article: German govt mandated more wind & PV power production, thus increasing supply without changing demand---> lower prices for the consumer but high production costs for the conventional producers unchanged.
They're going broke while the govt insists they keep online as backup for the unreliable "alternative energy sources." That's what happens when govt interferes with the free market.
What free market?
Electricity is sold in a regulated monopoly? Please, educate yourself.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ because of renewables? You know when the prices are low the
first units to get curtailed are the renewable ones right? Really the same thing is happening here. The economy sucks, DSM is have an effect on consumption. if it's not getting used you don't have to make it.....
Actually renewables are almost never curtailed. Normal dispatch is based upon incremental production costs. wind and sunlight aren't big expenses for the producers.
DSM has very little impact on total consumption. It changes the time of use.
Coal plants were providing all the power and matching demand. Then the govt insisted alternatives be built, greatly increasing supply. Now there is a surplus.
To remain as a viable back-up, the coal plants have to keep the water hot, literally & figuratively. How long does it take to bring one cup of water to a boil for your morning egg? How long would it take to bring millions of gallons to a boil when starting at room temp?
One problem with switching from coal to NG or wood gas is that it works great in our fantasy world, but we'd have to actually do it in the real world. Coal mining areas are often single industry areas. How do we transition those workers? How will they support their families without the mines? What work could be provided in their home area? Why isn't that work available there now if it's that simple and good.?
BTW- those idiots and their free markets lifted humanity from an agrarian society to an industrial society over the course of fifty yrs in the 19th century, increasing life expectancy from 25 yrs to 50 yrs along the way. Now with excessive regs, we haven't really advanced much since the advent of the computer and cell phone 40 yrs ago. Cause & effect or coincidence?
Coal gas adds a layer of inefficiency to the thermodynamic situation: you burn coal under hypoxic conditions causing partial oxidation, resulting in H2 & CO instead of complete oxidation (and more heat production) to CO2 & H2O. You take the H2 & CO then and burn it to complete the oxidation process to boil your water to turn your turbine, etc. By breaking the thing down into two steps, you lose extra heat (2nd Law of TD)....and you still have the same problem of "warm-up time" if using it for back-up... gotta keep it running.
That "marketable by products" in the figure in the linked site is "tar," --carcinogenic.
By using the coal gas method, you're burning a little more Coal to produce the same amount of electricity as just burning the coal the old fashioned way. OTOH-you could use the method with renewable biomass-- stuff that often goes to waste in the dumps, rotting (oxidizing) naturally but not producing usable energy.
I once did a "Fermi Solution" calculation showing that we could supply the automotive energy demand in the US by using all our lumber potential (not counting limbs, brush or garden waste) in engines set up to run on wood gas and it would last for 100 yrs-- without replanting! ....two problems: all that tar produced from inefficient oxidation really gums up engines, and it's pretty difficult to get the burning process going, so if you're gunna rob a bank, you better leave the engine running on your getaway car while you're inside.
Coal plants were providing all the power and matching demand. Then the govt insisted alternatives be built, greatly increasing supply. Now there is a surplus.
To remain as a viable back-up, the coal plants have to keep the water hot, literally & figuratively. How long does it take to bring one cup of water to a boil for your morning egg? How long would it take to bring millions of gallons to a boil when starting at room temp?
One problem with switching from coal to NG or wood gas is that it works great in our fantasy world, but we'd have to actually do it in the real world. Coal mining areas are often single industry areas. How do we transition those workers? How will they support their families without the mines? What work could be provided in their home area? Why isn't that work available there now if it's that simple and good.?
BTW- those idiots and their free markets lifted humanity from an agrarian society to an industrial society over the course of fifty yrs in the 19th century, increasing life expectancy from 25 yrs to 50 yrs along the way. Now with excessive regs, we haven't really advanced much since the advent of the computer and cell phone 40 yrs ago. Cause & effect or coincidence?
There is a reason why railroads, shipping and many others switched from coal fired boilers to oil or natural gas... Once a coal boiler cools down it cannot be "restarted" easily. Depending upon type of coal it can take a few to several hours in order to raise a head of steam to operating pressure. In addition the process for firing a coal heated boiler from a cold state requires skill and careful attention. If not done properly the thing can go *Kaboom*.
You can bank a coal fire thus reducing heat output but being able to bring it back to life quickly (again with skill...), but letting it go out is a no-no. Hence that old saying/song about keeping the home fires burning....
Steam power plants use different types of boilers but here is an old RR training film showing a coal fired steam locomotive undergoing a "shed day". It gives you a general idea of what is involved in firing up a cold steam boiler with coal.
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