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I'm not saying I change my mind on EVs but, I welcome your correction based on data, and what sound like good points from you all.
Maybe I should put in more numbers. My car;
Type: ICE 4 cylinder
Range: 200(city) to 450(pure hwy) miles per 11.5 gallons
Speed: 0-60 in yawn seconds (any EV beats this...)
Refuel Time: 2 mins.
Refule Cost: Roughly $38 (was $28 9 months ago...)
Own Time: 13 years / 110280 miles
I need an EV to be able to do those things or, it ain't viable for me.
it's a stinking, barren, God-forsaken arm pit with little or no environmental value. If there's one place you can have a mine with little impact, it's there.
If the warmists are right and the planet is doomed to a hot barren existence, then that God forsaken arm pit will become the source of the gene pool by which life will repopulate the Earth. Who are we to say what is environmentally important?
All technologies have their adverse environmental impacts. The whole idea that fossil fuels are severely detrimental is based on the false concept that atm co2 is bad. In fact, life depends on atm co2. The higher, the better. Life flourishes at higher temps- more biodiversity, larger populations, more complex food chains (ie-less likely a small perturbation will seriously disrupt the system) etc etc...
...Keep in mind that the living planet has been doing well for 3.5B yrs and is in a dynamic equilibrium for climate because it is in a highly organized system of negative feedback. World temps have never risen above 22degC despite [c02] as high as 8000ppm. The Sun and The Oceans control it all.
I'm not saying I change my mind on EVs but, I welcome your correction based on data, and what sound like good points from you all.
Maybe I should put in more numbers. My car;
Type: ICE 4 cylinder
Range: 200(city) to 450(pure hwy) miles per 11.5 gallons
Speed: 0-60 in yawn seconds (any EV beats this...)
Refuel Time: 2 mins.
Refule Cost: Roughly $38 (was $28 9 months ago...)
Own Time: 13 years / 110280 miles
I need an EV to be able to do those things or, it ain't viable for me.
So you are sincere? You understand that is about half or less of your prior required specs?
I have a used Volt in the driveway that meets most of that present list.
But I pay a LOT LESS for Fuel. And drive mostly Electric, most of the time.
So in the real world -- how much do you actually drive in a typical day?
This is why EVs remain a niche solution at this time...The capital cost of an EV is substantially higher than it's comparably equipped ICE counterpart. With gas in the $2-3/gal range, the EV often doesn't pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time.
If the ICE is $10G less than the EV and gets 30mpg, then, at $3/gal, you'd have to drive 100,000 miles for your gas savings to equal the extra cost of the vehicle-- assuming your electricity cost is zero.
If you don't drive very much, that means that EV will be parked in your driveway for a very long time. Retired people often drive less than 2000 mi/yr...50 yrs to break even?...Others may drive a lot and the savings will quickly accrue. Every one is different.
This is why EVs remain a niche solution at this time...The capital cost of an EV is substantially higher than it's comparably equipped ICE counterpart. With gas in the $2-3/gal range, the EV often doesn't pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time.
If the ICE is $10G less than the EV and gets 30mpg, then, at $3/gal, you'd have to drive 100,000 miles for your gas savings to equal the extra cost of the vehicle-- assuming your electricity cost is zero.
If you don't drive very much, that means that EV will be parked in your driveway for a very long time. Retired people often drive less than 2000 mi/yr...50 yrs to break even?...Others may drive a lot and the savings will quickly accrue. Every one is different.
You say "The capital cost of an EV is substantially higher than it's comparably equipped ICE counterpart" as if it is a given - where is the proof of that?
The $10K difference really doesn't exist - a few examples - The Model 3 is $48K; the BMW Model 3 is $45K, the MB C class $45K - if take into account options, the Tesla is actually on par for cost. For the Model 3 performance $57K; BMW M340 is $56K, M3 is $70K,; MB AMG C43 $57K, C63 $69K - the model 3 is right at the same cost or lower. A Kia Niro EV is $40K, $33K after Fed rebate, the equivalent ICE version is $32K - just $1K less.
This also ignores the real cost of ownership because of difference in other costs such as maintenance and depreciation. The KBB 5 year cost to own - BMW 330 $62K; MB C class $65K; Tesla Model 3 $48K - Tesla significantly less.
As far as Retired driving 2000 miles in a year or less, where did that come from - that is far from reality with average 65+ driving about 8-10K miles. I have been retired about 4 years - I have put on about 15K miles/yr for those 4 years, my DW has driven about 10K miles/yr - heck I have .
Look it up-- Nissan Leaf EV $25000-45000G. Comparably equipped Nissan ICE, $15G-- but I forgot, I'm dealing with the Elite Intelligentsia here. You wouldn't buy a car for less than 50Gs.
Average miles driven by 65+ --7500, but I suspect there's a very wide range. https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...h-year-ho.aspx Some retired folks like to travel. Many don't. Here in rural WI, my neighbors and I drive 1500 mi/yr....Even at 7500, it would take over 13 yrs to make up the fuel cost difference. How many expensive battery changes in that time?...And if you're paying $45Gs for an EV instead of $15 for an ICE, make that 40 yrs.
It's a niche car. It works for some; doesn't for others.
Look it up-- Nissan Leaf EV $25000-45000G. Comparably equipped Nissan ICE, $15G-- but I forgot, I'm dealing with the here. You wouldn't buy a car for less than 50Gs.
Average miles driven by 65+ --7500, but I suspect there's a very wide range. https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...h-year-ho.aspx Some retired folks like to travel. Many don't. Here in rural WI, my neighbors and I drive 1500 mi/yr....Even at 7500, it would take over 13 yrs to make up the fuel cost difference. How many expensive battery changes in that time?...And if you're paying $45Gs for an EV instead of $15 for an ICE, make that 40 yrs.
It's a niche car. It works for some; doesn't for others.
Since when was the Leaf $2.5M-$4.5M? Around me you can get one for about $20K. You want to ignore the real comparable vehicles and costs because they don't meet your made up criteria, real data shows that an EV is not "substantially higher than it's comparably equipped ICE counterpart". The real difference would be the true cost to own, that shows the EV substantially cheaper but you want to ignore that data. I guess I am dealing with anything but "Elite Intelligentsia" here.
You did a poor job of "Look it up". The Nissan LEAF starts at $28K - that is $21K after federal incentive. The only car in the US that is $15K is a manual transmission Chevy Spark - since when is that comparable? The lowest priced Nissan is the Versa sedan that starts at $16K with manual transmission, with an automatic transmission it is $17.5K and with comparable equipment to the LEAF it is $19K - but the LEAF is closer to a Sentra at $20.5K in quality and size. Also the Versa is no longer a hatch like the LEAF - the most comparable is the Nissan Kicks at $21K. So the difference is $2K only if use cheapest vehicle with a different body style and lower quality and under $500 higher if use the closest available vehicles. The 5 year cost of the LEAF is $33K ($26K if factor in Fed rebate), vs $36.5K for the cheap Versa or $39K for the Sentra - so not cheaper when factor in other costs.
The actual data from FHWA.gov is 7646 average 65+ and 10,304 for males, but many retirees are younger than 65 - the data from the Insurance institute is that retirees drive 30% less - that would reduce the 13,476 average to about 10K miles - which is where my 8-10K came from. If use the $2K difference and 7500, it is a little under 3 years, at $500 it is a about 8 months. If use the $3K diff between MB or BMW and Model 3 that ignores actual equivalent options, then the time is 4 years to recoup. Also most EV batteries are aged by use, the batteries should last about 40 years at 7500 miles/yr.
The 2 cars I used were both under $50K and are not "niche car(s)" - you want to dismiss them because you are upset that the vehicles I used, disprove your supposition - even though your $20K vehicle does also.
The Tesla Model 3 I used is the most popular EV and the 4th most popular car in the US - that doesn't sound like a "niche car". The Model 3 is also the 16th most popular vehicle in the US - ahead of vehicles like the Jeep Wrangler and Honda Accord. Seems like it works for more than a few and far from just a niche vehicle. No one but you is comparing a $15K vehicle (that is really $19K) to one that is $45K - the comparison is $19K to $21K (or $45K to 48K if ignore options) - lets not make up stuff.
BTW - The average miles driven in WI is 15,442, a little higher than average in the US and most in rural area drivers drive more than average. I doubt most of your neighbors drive 1500/ yr - that would allow less than 30 miles a week - not even enough to get to town for food, let alone Dr appointments or other trips if really rural.
Five miles to town & back, once a week (or less) = 520 mi/yr. When you live in Paradise, you don't need to leave home too often. People who have no concept of the rest of the world shouldn't be making The Rules for everyone else.
No need to argue car prices. The experts have done it for us https://insideevs.com/news/334801/mo...h-ice-by-2025/ IF prices do equalize by then, thanks to silly political agenda, electricity & battery prices may well have made the move to EVs less attractive than it appears now.
If you and Dr. Festinger think your use of an EV is good for you, Great. I'm happy for you. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
Five miles to town & back, once a week (or less) = 520 mi/yr. When you live in Paradise, you don't need to leave home too often. People who have no concept of the rest of the world shouldn't be making The Rules for everyone else.
No need to argue car prices. The experts have done it for us https://insideevs.com/news/334801/mo...h-ice-by-2025/ IF prices do equalize by then, thanks to silly political agenda, electricity & battery prices may well have made the move to EVs less attractive than it appears now.
If you and Dr. Festinger think your use of an EV is good for you, Great. I'm happy for you. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
So not really rural - I would consider semi-rural WI pretty far from "heaven" - too cold and isolated for me. I lived in an area like that for almost 10 years, would not go back, but maybe it is good for you.
Very very few drive under 600 miles a year, sounds like an extreme use case. But an EV will still work and likely be cheaper because lower costs to maintain, fill and depreciation. You are even essentially arguing that depreciation will be less by implying EVs may be more expensive in the future. I provided data that EVs are essentially equivalent cost to purchase and significantly lower cost to operate but you seem to want to ignore that data.
What I dislike is those that essentially say doesn't work for me so doesn't work for anyone and find excuses for disparaging EVs by using false or misleading data - that is what you are doing. If you remember - you argued a $10K difference and after shown that wasn't close to being true, now point to an old article and claim "IF prices equalize" in a few years to claim currently are not. Maybe you didn't really read the article you cited;
Quote:
Some would argue that certain EVs have already reached price parity with gas cars if you factor in the savings on gas and maintenance, especially for those that are able to recover the entire U.S. federal EV tax rebate.
That article is from over 4 years ago and even then was saying prices were already "essentially" the same, EVs have come down a lot in price since then. The expected price of the Ford F-150 Lightning (EV version) due next year is reported to be the same price as the regular version and that EV version gets a $7500 federal incentive. That sounds like better than parity.
I didn't make any rules and I am not for forcing them on anyone - if you read some of my posts, you would know that I don't care for forcing EVs on others. Take a real look and drive one before you form an opinion, just going by false data is not an honest way to evaluate.
I'm not saying I change my mind on EVs but, I welcome your correction based on data, and what sound like good points from you all.
Maybe I should put in more numbers. My car;
Type: ICE 4 cylinder
Range: 200(city) to 450(pure hwy) miles per 11.5 gallons
Speed: 0-60 in yawn seconds (any EV beats this...)
Refuel Time: 2 mins.
Refule Cost: Roughly $38 (was $28 9 months ago...)
Own Time: 13 years / 110280 miles
I need an EV to be able to do those things or, it ain't viable for me.
This would sum up my own personal view on this.
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