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Yes, I agree, A white guy can never know what a black guy feels! ( sad, we are all in the human race, but must be a different species )
I would never presume to know exactly how anybody feels, except myself!
So all you local guys who tell Haoles that there you dont have any reason to complain about racism in Hawaii. Need to shut it up. You dont know how they feel.
I have seen prejudice against haoles, and I'm totally against it! Although I don't have any caucasian blood, fully 1/3 of my immediate family are haoles due to marriage.
Also.... HOW SAD!!!
The white guy Waimanalo is in so much pain that he thinks the hatred in Hawaii is equal to what blacks experienced in the mainland????
Any white person who is even thinking about moving to Hawaii.... should read that sentence clearly.... it speaks for its self.
I met the white guy Waimanalo over my friend's apt. who happens to be an african american, and the white guy was his friend.
The white guy's main complaint was that people in waimanalo weren't as friendly towards him as they were to other people who were local. This hardly qualifies him as being in so much pain!
In fact after the white guy left my african american friend's apt., my friend told me how angry he was that his white friend would even presume to know how he felt, and the prejudices he encountered on the mainland as a black man. And although he deliberately held back from commenting on his white friend's story, he was so glad that I said how ridiculous it was.
Last edited by Honolulu21; 09-21-2010 at 12:53 AM..
I met the white guy Waimanalo over my friend's apt. who happens to be an african american, and the white guy was his friend.
The white guy claimed that people in waimanalo weren't as friendly towards him as they were to other people who were local. This hardly qualifies him as being in so much pain!
In fact after the white guy left my african american friend's apt., my friend told me how angry he was that his white friend would even presume to know how he felt, and the prejudices he encountered on the mainland as a black man. And although he deliberately held back from commenting on his white friend's story, he was so glad that I said how ridiculous it was.
Yeah, true, no one would ever know how a black man feels to be on the mainland.
I can easily see a black guy going to functions and visibly seeing how whites might treat him different than your average white guy....on the surface.
On the other hand, if you are a white guy with a black friend...it's also interesting how you'll see what you perceive as almost all of the other black guys doing this instant bonding thing...and then a kind of 'hey, who invited the white guy?' kind of thing as well.
I met the white guy Waimanalo over my friend's apt. who happens to be an african american, and the white guy was his friend.
The white guy's main complaint was that people in waimanalo weren't as friendly towards him as they were to other people who were local. This hardly qualifies him as being in so much pain!
In fact after the white guy left my african american friend's apt., my friend told me how angry he was that his white friend would even presume to know how he felt, and the prejudices he encountered on the mainland as a black man. And although he deliberately held back from commenting on his white friend's story, he was so glad that I said how ridiculous it was.
So being a relatively disliked minority that the majority of people would probably rather not have in their neighborhood is nothing similar to what black people go through in many parts of modern America? While I will agree that the wording may not have been the best, and that it certainly does not have the historical injustice behind it that the black experience has had in America, I could see how the individual experience itself might be kind of similar. Perhaps people stare at him when he goes to the store like he doesn't belong? Maybe they are friendly with the other neighbors but just kind of walk past him without smiling or saying hi when he walks down the street? Maybe his neighbors blame their problems on haoles and talk about how their society would be better is the haoles were gone? Sound familiar?
I get kind of irritated with the indignant response that any caucasian person gets when they complain about discrimination in Hawaii. The typical responses are:
1) If you are having any issues, the problem is probably with you.
2) You just don't know how to handle not being the majority.
It is like there is some minority badge of honor club that they want to keep whitey out of. If you want to get some smug sense of satisfaction from whitey getting a taste of his own medicine then that is fine... but call it what it is rather than acting like they don't get discriminated against out there.
I met the white guy Waimanalo over my friend's apt. who happens to be an african american, and the white guy was his friend.
The white guy's main complaint was that people in waimanalo weren't as friendly towards him as they were to other people who were local. This hardly qualifies him as being in so much pain!
In fact after the white guy left my african american friend's apt., my friend told me how angry he was that his white friend would even presume to know how he felt, and the prejudices he encountered on the mainland as a black man. And although he deliberately held back from commenting on his white friend's story, he was so glad that I said how ridiculous it was.
As bad as it is for Haoles in Hawaii, Racism is much worse for Blacks.
A Haole can generally get accepted into the local culture if he puts up with enough crap, long enough.
A brother, is still a brother. Or as the locals call them " Papolo "
So being a relatively disliked minority that the majority of people would probably rather not have in their neighborhood is nothing similar to what black people go through in many parts of modern America?
Things that I do not hear haoles in Hawaii complain about & have never witnessed happening:
We are not stopped regularly by cops while driving through certain neighborhoods, for no clear reason. (Google "DWB: driving while black".)
People do not cross the street, lock their car doors, or clutch their purses more tightly when they see us walking down the street.
We are not followed by store security, pretty blatantly, on a regular basis, in almost every nice store.
There are not frequent roundups of young haole guys when a crime has been committed by an assailant and the only description is "young white male."
I could go on, but I'll just say: No, the experience of being haole in Honolulu is NOTHING LIKE the experience of being black in most major American cities. And saying it is similar don't make it so.
Things that I do not hear haoles in Hawaii complain about & have never witnessed happening:
We are not stopped regularly by cops while driving through certain neighborhoods, for no clear reason. (Google "DWB: driving while black".).
I got 4 tickets in 2 years. All dropped for lack of evidence when I went to court (because i didn't do anything). Cited for recon when there was nothing wrong with my car. Cited for "exhibition of speed" but no speed was listed on the ticket. I was searched for drugs despite there being no indication I had any. It is not to the same extent that blacks deal with in many places but it does happen. This was one of the major reasons I got rid of my car and just rode my bike or took the bus everywhere. That and the ****ty parking and high rates of auto theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newUHprof
I could go on, but I'll just say: No, the experience of being haole in Honolulu is NOTHING LIKE the experience of being black in most major American cities. And saying it is similar don't make it so.
I'm from Virginia, I don't need a lecture on what black people deal with in this country. I pointed out specific situations where it may be a similar experience. You replied with the typical answer I would expect from an academic... which is to get indignant any time a white person complains about discrimination. You are correct, it is not exactly the same. I never said it was... I said it may seem similar in certian situations. To be honest, it is actually probably more like what legal mexican immigrants feel like... but it is ****ty none the less. I spent 4 years in that ivory tower that is Manoa campus and trust me, you are very insulated from half of what goes on around that island. Things you will here this haole complain about:
I sat on the bus and got screamed at by "Hawaiians" for taking their land and told to go back to where I came from.
I was told that I would not be hired because "they do not hire mainland haoles". and no, I did not file a complaint over a minimum wage job that I didnt get.
Was told that I needed to leave a bar, by patrons of the bar, and that if I didn't leave I was gonna get my ass kicked. Though they did not say it was because I, and my friends, were haoles... there were no other reasons I could think of since we had just walked in and not said a word.
I witnessed my friends daughter come home crying because the kids at school were picking on her daily because she was a "mainland haole". She pulled her kid of public school and had to pay for private because they wouldn't leave her alone.
I'm not saying the place is full of racists, 95% of the people I met in Hawaii were great folks. But this stuff does happen.
I could go on, but I'll just say: Yes, the experience of being haole in Honolulu is VERY SIMILAR to the experience of being a disliked minority in most major American cities. And saying it isn't similar don't make it so.
Ah, flinging "academic" as an epithet... yes, that automatically discredits anything I have to say. Because I am, what, educated and rational? Um, yeah. I find it really hard to take that as the insult you mean it to be. I worked very hard to be an "academic," and am quite proud of the accomplishment.
First of all: being a minority where *everyone* is a minority is totally different from being a minority where there is a clear majority. In Hawaii, no race is over 50% of the population. And whites make up a larger percentage than native Hawaiians, second only to Asians.
Second: for the most part, the haoles here are more economically advantaged than the native population. And the native population do not have the political power, either. So being yelled at on the bus, well, forgive me if I don't see the similarity between that and the *systemic* discrimination suffered throughout our nation's history by black Americans, a minority with little to no economic and political power living amongst a true majority.
Ah, flinging "academic" as an epithet... yes, that automatically discredits anything I have to say. Because I am, what, educated and rational? Um, yeah. I find it really hard to take that as the insult you mean it to be. I worked very hard to be an "academic," and am quite proud of the accomplishment.
First of all: being a minority where *everyone* is a minority is totally different from being a minority where there is a clear majority. In Hawaii, no race is over 50% of the population. And whites make up a larger percentage than native Hawaiians, second only to Asians.
Second: for the most part, the haoles here are more economically advantaged than the native population. And the native population do not have the political power, either. So being yelled at on the bus, well, forgive me if I don't see the similarity between that and the *systemic* discrimination suffered throughout our nation's history by black Americans, a minority with little to no economic and political power living amongst a true majority.
You have proven my point, you give a typical "academic" answer that talks about systemic discrimination and political power. Thats what I would expect. Calling you an academic was not a derogatory statement. I try not to get caught up in ad hominem debates. It is simply my experience that most academics get indignant when white people complain about discrimination because they come at it from a prospective of socio-economic advantages and historical oppression. I don't think I implied that you being an academic discredits anything, your defensiveness brought out that perceived implication. I worked hard for my degrees, I would assume you did the same.
There is a majority in Hawaii and it is called "locals". Mainland haoles are not locals. You can subdivide people by race and ethnicity all you want, and do it in whatever fashion makes your point, I really don't care. Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, and Chinese are separate groups under your version of the demographics but Irish, German. and Russian all fall under "Caucasian"... Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Venezuelans are all just "Hispanic"... Nigerians, Sudanese, and Kenyans are all just "Black" so there is conveniently not an asian majority in hawaii. That is fine, I really don't care. The real issue is that there is a cultural divide in the islands and it is very clear where that line has been drawn.
My overall point is more about what it "feels" like to walk around and feel out of place, disliked, looked at like you don't belong, and harassed for no other reason than your physical appearance (mainly being haole). It does happen enough in Hawaii that numerous people feel the need to complain about it and it would be nice if folks would acknowledge that instead of making excuses for it and blaming the victims. I suspect that the person who made the (poorly worded "I know what it's like to be black") comment meant just that, not that they really knew what it was like to have their ancestors suffer through 400 years of mistreatment. I could be wrong but that is the stance I am taking for the sake of this argument. That is why I was very careful to use the term "modern america" in my original post. I wanted to take the historical perspective out of it and just focus on the day to day experience. Nobody is claiming that haoles in Hawaii have been economically disadvantaged or disproportionately kept out of power. That is a ludicrous assertion, nothing about the history of the islands supports that. Caucasians are second only to Asians in terms of property ownership and income in Hawaii. I'm just acknowledging that a lot of people, who are probably minding their own business, are made to feel unwanted and that they don't like the feeling. Nobody can just acknowledge that, their always has to be some caveat about how it was their "mainland" attitude that caused the problem or some other condescending comment.
It is simply my experience that most academics get indignant when white people complain about discrimination because they come at it from a prospective of socio-economic advantages and historical oppression. I don't think I implied that you being an academic discredits anything, your defensiveness brought out that perceived implication. I worked hard for my degrees, I would assume you did the same.
No, academics get indignant when people try to imply that personal experience (it happened to me!) or worse hearsay (my neighbor's daughter blah blah blah) is universal truth.
Everyone experiences a place differently. I would venture to guess that college-age haole guys experience more discrimination of some sort or another than other folks. You might ask: how much of it is because you are white, and how much is it because people don't like college-age kids? Or because local folks mis-read you as college-age tourists from elsewhere? Or... lots of other possible explanations.
So saying, "locals harass haoles and I know this because they harassed me" is flawed thinking.
No, academics get indignant when people try to imply that personal experience (it happened to me!) or worse hearsay (my neighbor's daughter blah blah blah) is universal truth.
Everyone experiences a place differently. I would venture to guess that college-age haole guys experience more discrimination of some sort or another than other folks. You might ask: how much of it is because you are white, and how much is it because people don't like college-age kids? Or because local folks mis-read you as college-age tourists from elsewhere? Or... lots of other possible explanations.
So saying, "locals harass haoles and I know this because they harassed me" is flawed thinking.
What is truth if not the sum of a bunch of personal experiences? How many personal experiences does it take before it becomes truth? Should I do a search of the archives on here and document each case, then perhaps we can come up with a number or a percentage of the total population that you find acceptable? I have an idea, how about if it doesn't happen to everyone then it doesn't happen at all? Or that it only counts if it happens to a socioeconomically disadvantaged portion of the population?
This is not a math problem with a defined set of assumptions. Nobody is claiming universal truth, universal truth is a fallacy when it comes to human endeavors because people are imperfect creatures... the point is that it happens often enough to be a problem and I would expect an "educated and rational" academic such as yourself to be a little more sympathetic or at least acknowledge that it may be an issue. I understand that many peoples first reaction ANY TIME a white person in America complains about discrimination is probably to scoff and look for another explanation or justify it somehow with historical perspective. We are conditioned to do so, I have to fight the urge myself sometimes. It is just funny to me that someone would try to dismiss NUMEROUS accounts by people and and locals even coming on the board and outright saying that they discriminate and pre-judge you (https://www.city-data.com/forum/hawai...sm-hawaii.html). I am not arguing whether there is historical perspective to justify it, I am not arguing whether haoles are just getting a taste of their own medicine, I am not even arguing whether people should just have a thicker skin and deal with it. I am just saying that it is enough of a problem that prospective transplants need to consider it before moving and since this is a relocation forum it needs to be acknowledged on here so that folks can make an educated decision. The post that started this whole debate was from a white guy in Waimanalo for gods sake, it is a pretty safe bet that a mainland haole transplant in Waimanalo is probably gonna deal with some discrimination from time to time.
Alas, I've said my piece, you have said yours... we are just gonna talk in circles at this point so I am comfortable leaving it at that. You can have the last word if you want it, sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread.
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