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Let's clear a huge misconception - Aloha went out of business solely due to !go.
Yes, I read the entire quote, but your focus is too narrow. Go! expedited Aloha's demise, but Aloha also created some of their problems - namely their fleet. An aging B737-200 fleet, rising fuel costs and a B737-700 fleet that was not suited for inter-island flying (CFM engines need prolonged cooling periods on the ground or at cruise vs the PW engine on the B732 or the RR engine on the B717).
Yes, I read the entire quote, but your focus is too narrow. Go! expedited Aloha's demise, but Aloha also created some of their problems - namely their fleet. An aging B737-200 fleet, rising fuel costs and a B737-700 fleet that was not suited for inter-island flying (CFM engines need prolonged cooling periods on the ground or at cruise vs the PW engine on the B732 or the RR engine on the B717).
Agreed - One of the barriers of entry for other carriers is finding the right airplane for interisland flying - you are correct, the 737's Aloha had were really inefficient and couldn't do quick turns as they had to sit on the ground and cool down - and the 50 seat RJ's from Go just didn't carry enough passengers for such a small hop.
Agreed - One of the barriers of entry for other carriers is finding the right airplane for interisland flying - you are correct, the 737's Aloha had were really inefficient and couldn't do quick turns as they had to sit on the ground and cool down - and the 50 seat RJ's from Go just didn't carry enough passengers for such a small hop.
I wonder how much passenger psychology plays into all this?
Personally I'd rather fly smaller planes on more frequent schedules, and I've got no problem at all with the turboprop planes that cruise at 32,000 ft as opposed to the regional jets that operate at 41,000 ft. or so. After all, most interisland hops are under an hour.
For that matter, I really like flying the Cessna Grand Caravan that Mokulele operates on many of its routes, at what... 8,000 ft cruise? So much better for whale watching and sight seeing! But I know they make some people nervous.
Still, paying $300 to fly halfway across the Pacific to Honolulu, then another $150 for the short jump to a neighbor island seems excessive to me, so I hope some meaningful competition develops to hold down the interisland fares. Mokulele seems to think $59 is a decent price point, and so do I. And $39 is even better!
I wonder how much passenger psychology plays into all this?
Personally I'd rather fly smaller planes on more frequent schedules, and I've got no problem at all with the turboprop planes that cruise at 32,000 ft as opposed to the regional jets that operate at 41,000 ft. or so. After all, most interisland hops are under an hour.
For that matter, I really like flying the Cessna Grand Caravan that Mokulele operates on many of its routes, at what... 8,000 ft cruise? So much better for whale watching and sight seeing! But I know they make some people nervous.
Still, paying $300 to fly halfway across the Pacific to Honolulu, then another $150 for the short jump to a neighbor island seems excessive to me, so I hope some meaningful competition develops to hold down the interisland fares. Mokulele seems to think $59 is a decent price point, and so do I.
$300 to fly across the Pacific? LAX-HNL flights are running double that in April and about that from SFO - and over $500 from SEA. You find a $300 airfare, I'd grab it.
By 50 seats on Go, I didn't mean they weren't filling the seats - I meant, 50 passengers isn't enough people to make money flying a jet 80 miles. Most of the cost is just getting that jet off of the ground. You can make money on a turboprop filling 50 seats - a jet, difficult at best, especially when they needed to charge less to get people on the plane due to the virtually nonexistent frequent flier plan.
Airfare, corrected for inflation, is far cheaper in 2013 than it was in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.
$300 to fly across the Pacific? LAX-HNL flights are running double that in April and about that from SFO - and over $500 from SEA. You find a $300 airfare, I'd grab it.
I didn't have to look far... Alaska Air, tomorrow, Seattle to Honolulu via San Jose, $304.70
No. Nothing to fix. I was looking at a one way and one way, long-haul vs short hop
Quote:
One-way inter-island flights on Hawaiian usually range from $70 one-way on sale, average about $80, and tend to max at $90-$110 last minute.
I read the posted rates a little differently. I picked a day at random in April, and the available Coach rates for Honolulu to Kona on Hawaiian are (with lowest and highest highlighted): 88.20, 101.20, 94.20, 88.20, 94.20, 94.20, 115.20, Sold Out, Sold Out, 171.20, 152.20, 152.20, 152.20, 152.20, 94.20, 94.20, 121.30, 121.30, 129.75, and 129.75
Average $119.22, min at $88.20, max at $171.20 (A couple of weeks later the fares were $99.20-216.05)
So for that Alaska flight from Seattle to Honolulu, roughly 2,700 miles, 6 1/2 hrs, the $304 flight works out to 11.25 cents per mile, or $46.77 per hour
While on that Hawaiian flight from Honolulu to Kona, roughly 164 miles, and a 45 minute flight, the rock bottom priced flight at $88.20 works out to 53.78 cents per mile, or $117.60 per hour.
And the average priced Hawaiian flight at $119.20 works out to 72.68 cents per mile, or $158.93 per hour.
Of course I don't expect the same mileage costs or hourly rates on a short hop as on a long haul, but really... what's a reasonable differential? I know you've got your gate fees to pay, your landing fees, and taxes etc., but hey, doesn't $59 just sound a whole lot better? and how about $39 on sale? I'll bet the increase in traffic from all the happy kama'aina and relieved cardiac patients would more than make up the fare difference.
No. Nothing to fix. I was looking at a one way and one way, long-haul vs short hop
I read the posted rates a little differently. I picked a day at random in April, and the available Coach rates for Honolulu to Kona on Hawaiian are (with lowest and highest highlighted): 88.20, 101.20, 94.20, 88.20, 94.20, 94.20, 115.20, Sold Out, Sold Out, 171.20, 152.20, 152.20, 152.20, 152.20, 94.20, 94.20, 121.30, 121.30, 129.75, and 129.75
Average $119.22, min at $88.20, max at $171.20 (A couple of weeks later the fares were $99.20-216.05)
So for that Alaska flight from Seattle to Honolulu, roughly 2,700 miles, 6 1/2 hrs, the $304 flight works out to 11.25 cents per mile, or $46.77 per hour
While on that Hawaiian flight from Honolulu to Kona, roughly 164 miles, and a 45 minute flight, the rock bottom priced flight at $88.20 works out to 53.78 cents per mile, or $117.60 per hour.
And the average priced Hawaiian flight at $119.20 works out to 72.68 cents per mile, or $158.93 per hour.
Of course I don't expect the same mileage costs or hourly rates on a short hop as on a long haul, but really... what's a reasonable differential? I know you've got your gate fees to pay, your landing fees, and taxes etc., but hey, doesn't $59 just sound a whole lot better? and how about $39 on sale? I'll bet the increase in traffic from all the happy kama'aina and relieved cardiac patients would more than make up the fare difference.
Why be so misleading?
Let's take April 1. Similar to your "random" day in April. SEA-HNL on Alaska nonstop ranges $343 or $643. 1-stop+ ranges $479 to $694. You seemed to leave out the ranges before.
Let's fly someone else other than Hawaiian HNL-KOA on April 1. The heck with Hawaiian, way to expensive.
Hawaiian (at the time I write this) can get you there for $102 (on a jet nonstop). Yeah, kind of expensive. A cab from the HNL to Waikiki is going to run $50 with tip by the way.
Let's try Mokulele and do some whale watching, they fly really low and stuff - and slow. 2 stops and 2.5 hours later, the cheapest is $138. Uh oh.
Island Air? They can get there in 1 stop, still 2.5 hours - what for it, cheapest, $246
Anyway, any pilot can help do the math - you can't fly a jet to Kona from HNL and sell $39 seats, you won't even cover the fuel.
If someone could come in and sell $39 seats HNL-KOA and make money, then someone would do it. Wait, someone did come in - called Go - except for the making money part.
Not misleading. Everything I quoted was fact. Mostly I just wanted to poke some fun at the fact that without any real competition now, Hawaiian's interisland fares seem to give everyone sticker shock, me included.
Quote:
Let's fly someone else other than Hawaiian HNL-KOA on April 1. The heck with Hawaiian, way to expensive.
Hawaiian (at the time I write this) can get you there for $102 (on a jet nonstop). Yeah, kind of expensive. A cab from the HNL to Waikiki is going to run $50 with tip by the way.
Let's try Mokulele and do some whale watching, they fly really low and stuff - and slow. 2 stops and 2.5 hours later, the cheapest is $138. Uh oh.
Island Air? They can get there in 1 stop, still 2.5 hours - what for it, cheapest, $246
You must have left something, because this makes no sense to me at all.
Quote:
Anyway, any pilot can help do the math - you can't fly a jet to Kona from HNL and sell $39 seats, you won't even cover the fuel.
Oh, I know, I was just exaggerating to make a point. $39 may be too cheap, but that average I found of $119.22 seems too high
Quote:
If someone could come in and sell $39 seats HNL-KOA and make money, then someone would do it. Wait, someone did come in - called Go - except for the making money part.
I know. They really made a mess out of things. You guys need some strong competition to keep you in line, but you also deserve to make a profit.
Still, KOA to OGG (Kahukui, Maui), April 16 (again, just picked at random)...
Hawaiian Air, trip time 44 minutes, fares range from $121.20 to $214.70
Mokulele Air, trip time 42 minutes, fare $59
To me that feels like Hawaiian is taking advantage of the situation. The distance is less than half what it is from Koa to HNL, yet the fares are much higher. Seems like they could be lower. That's my customer feedback.
Still, KOA to OGG (Kahukui, Maui), April 16 (again, just picked at random)...
Hawaiian Air, trip time 44 minutes, fares range from $121.20 to $214.70
Mokulele Air, trip time 42 minutes, fare $59
To me that feels like Hawaiian is taking advantage of the situation. The distance is less than half what it is from Koa to HNL, yet the fares are much higher. Seems like they could be lower. That's my customer feedback.
There are only 2 nonstop per day, KOA to OGG on Hawaiian 4/16 (33 minutes by the way), and the flight is $121 one way nonstop that day. Not exactly a core route.
Mokulele flies over 15 nonstops on that route - (and only 2 are $59 via the Mokulele website).
Jeez, fly Mokulele. How is Hawaiian taking advantage - fly them.
I'll give some insight - it isn't a secret - sorry. People flying solely KOA-OGG is very rare on Hawaiian. People flying that route are connecting to OGG for a mainland flight which artificially raises the price if you only go KOA-OGG. The flight times are specifically timed for mainland connections.
I'll even give you an example.
As of the time I write this, on Hawaiian, OGG-SEA nonstop that day is $576. Same day, KOA-OGG-SEA is $482 - almost $100 cheaper. It is simply a feeder flight to the Maui hub.
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