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There is a historical context to many of the issues facing Hawaii today. However, it would be a mistake to attribute an undue amount of weight to them when considering why people feel the way they do. The Honolulu Rail project is highly controversial and as much as there are arguments about how it looks or preserving the nature of Hawaii, the heaviest arguments revolve around government spending, the cost to taxpayers, and the 0.5% excise tax surcharge on Oahu (basically an extra 0.5% sales tax everyone on Oahu has to pay to finance the rail project). The Superferry project had a lot of environmental concerns involving whale impacts, spread of invasive species and so forth but my impression is that it was mostly politics and spin, for the majority of people the concern was in the neighbor islands that on the weekends Oahu traffic was going to spread to the neighbor islands, fill up the roads and tear up the off-road trails. Basically how I imagine people in Vermont feel about weekenders from New York.
History carries significant weight, but we are just as moved by our everyday concerns here in Hawaii like traffic, the cost of gas, and the economy.
FWIW - OP, you say you have traveled, but you missed one important thing... one of the groups that adapts the quickest in Hawaii is the group who visit and move there from the midwest. One of the cultural similarities between Hawaii and the midwest is the emphasis on family. Another is the idea of "taking care." Where I came from originally, if someone's barn burned down or was damaged in a storm, we all just naturally showed up the next morning with equipment, tools, supplies and food to help them get back on their feet. That's something we saw after every hurricane in Hawaii. Same cultural expectation and behavior. Midwesterners often don't have the deep seated prejudices of the deep south or the coasts. (As with all generalities, I'm sure someone here will have a boatload of examples otherwise, but it's usually a point of connection not disconnection.) The links at the bottom of this post have many other "wait a minute" posts that don't really concur with all your assertions.
As a Midwesterner myself, there is also a humble nature, a nature that despises boasting, bragging, loudness, etc. That's not to say that there aren't some in the Midwest that are like that...but in general, those kinds of behaviors are not acceptable in the Midwest, and will get people looked down on a lot.
I just bring this up, because the OP mentioned that bragging and boasting are a Mainland trait. I do see it happen unabashedly on the West Coast and East Coast at times. But, in the Midwest, the values are being 'down-to-earth', humble, listen to others, to work hard, etc.
In general, I find those characteristics in Midwest being quite good, in that many Midwesterners fit into all kinds of other situations and cultures, with a little bit of observance, and it's unlikely they'll even reference having been from the Midwest. I used to see it in Oregon all the time, you'd have no idea someone was from the Midwest, but you'd easily know those who were from NY or California. They'd tell you often, for one, etc. and by their more assertive nature.
Location: Southernmost tip of the southernmost island in the southernmost state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer
As a Midwesterner myself, there is also a humble nature, a nature that despises boasting, bragging, loudness, etc. That's not to say that there aren't some in the Midwest that are like that...but in general, those kinds of behaviors are not acceptable in the Midwest, and will get people looked down on a lot.
I just bring this up, because the OP mentioned that bragging and boasting are a Mainland trait. I do see it happen unabashedly on the West Coast and East Coast at times. But, in the Midwest, the values are being 'down-to-earth', humble, listen to others, to work hard, etc.
In general, I find those characteristics in Midwest being quite good, in that many Midwesterners fit into all kinds of other situations and cultures, with a little bit of observance, and it's unlikely they'll even reference having been from the Midwest. I used to see it in Oregon all the time, you'd have no idea someone was from the Midwest, but you'd easily know those who were from NY or California. They'd tell you often, for one, etc. and by their more assertive nature.
Sooooo the fly-to state has most in common with the fly-over states?
Sooooo the fly-to state has most in common with the fly-over states?
The other, the fly-over state would adopt more quickly and make a sincere effort to blend into other areas. Partially, perhaps, because who would really want to say the Midwest does things better, or is better, or boast about it.
FWIW - OP, you say you have traveled, but you missed one important thing... one of the groups that adapts the quickest in Hawaii is the group who visit and move there from the midwest. One of the cultural similarities between Hawaii and the midwest is the emphasis on family. Another is the idea of "taking care." Where I came from originally, if someone's barn burned down or was damaged in a storm, we all just naturally showed up the next morning with equipment, tools, supplies and food to help them get back on their feet. That's something we saw after every hurricane in Hawaii. Same cultural expectation and behavior. Midwesterners often don't have the deep seated prejudices of the deep south or the coasts. (As with all generalities, I'm sure someone here will have a boatload of examples otherwise, but it's usually a point of connection not disconnection.) The links at the bottom of this post have many other "wait a minute" posts that don't really concur with all your assertions.
Hi R_Cowgirl, First, let me say that I always enjoy reading your thoughtful and intelligent posts. While I agree with most of the above, a fair number (not all) of my friends originally from the Midwest hate fish and other sea-foods in general. I, on the other hand love seafood and prefer it over meat like most other locals.A good example is my friend Terry who is originally from a town in North Dakota, Minot. While he has all of the traits you listed above, his finicky, narrow-mindedness of trying different foods, especially seafood used to irritate me to no end. He's gotten a little better (Thank God!) after living here for nearly 15 years. I'm ashamed to admit this, but his picky eating habits caused me to shun his company until I realized that he was one of four friends who was there for me when another good friend of mine died. Since I was the executor of my deceased friend's estate, I had to sort and clean his condo in Waikiki and Terry was one of my friends who I could depend on. It took me and 3 other good friends, 5 to 6 months to clean the place thoroughly because my friend who died was a serious pack rat.
I'm posting because I'm not sure why you started this thread. There are numerous threads on City Data in the Hawaii forum that have beat this topic to death. So many of the people posting who hate the term "haole" are actually not from Hawaii, haven't visited Hawaii, and really have absolutely not a shred of understanding of the extreme complexities that go along with the diversity found in the islands. I still maintain that Hawaii does diversity better than anywhere else, and it's partly because we aren't all that politically correct -- a concept that has not worked anywhere, proven by the increase rather than the decrease in racist complaints across the US since the idea of PC was introduced.
I mentioned elsewhere on CD how I happened to have a Caucasian grandmother. She wasn't related to me by blood since my maternal grandmother passed away from cancer when my mother was 18 yrs. old. After a few years passed, my grandfather married my Caucasian grandmother before I was born, so she was the only grandmother I knew and loved on my mother's side. When Grandma Dory as we called her, visited us from Rochester, New York she would joking refer to herself as being our "haole grandmother". I never thought of the word "haole" as being racist or derogatory unless an epithet or negative adjective was used with it. What stopped me from using the word haole was my sister-in-law(both my brother and sister married Caucasians). She said although she doesn't object to that word per se, she is much more than just a generic white person. She explained that she was mostly German mixed with some English and was proud of her ethnic background(especially the German part, LOL). She also said don't locals in Hawaii hate to be called just Asian or local, and instead prefer being described by their ethnic background such as Chinese/Hawaiian which I am, or Japanese, Portuguese and Hawaiian or any of the other myriad of ethnic mixes that you would find here.
I had to concede to her that she had a good point.
Now ive heard "that haole is rude" or "disrespectful haole" Any reference to the term haole as negative is in reference to a behavior or cultural differences a haole does or perceived to have done, not the color of his skin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFrostyJ
Since the word haole in 2015 is pretty much only used to describe a person with white skin, then I have to disagree with you.
If a person with black skin was doing something rude, would it then be ok to say that "N Word" is rude?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiian by heart
We call them popolo or haole. Every race in hawaii has a name in hawaiian or pidgin english except caucasian. Do you find that interesting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFrostyJ
Yes, that is interesting. What it tells me is that in the past Hawaiians, like many other people of the world, liked to label people by the color of their skin. However, that doesn't make it right to continue to do so in 2015.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiian by heart
But at the same time all you need to do is look at the population makeup of poor communities thru rich communities in hawaii to find that the poor communities are made up mostly of native hawaiians and other local minorities and very few caucasians but the richer the communities the less native hawaiians and local minorities and more caucasian in 2015! Now i have a difficult time with this when mainland society and you tell me mcfrostyj that everyone is equal and can succeed equally. Why the lopsidedness? Are native hawaiians and local minorities lazy? But so much effort to eliminate a word.
The only execption to the population makeup is asians they seem to be fairly equally represented across the board in poor and rich communities.
Do you ever actually read the posts that you are replying to?
Do you ever actually read the posts that you are replying to?
lol do you? You can see all my posts basically talk about cause and effect in regards to behavior, culture and the differences of culture in the way the word haole is used in negative ways or not used in negative ways. But the problem is you can't possiblely win or get sympathy in eliminating a possible racist word haole because it only effects you but still hold onto and cling to classism and other racist ideals even if its not intentional because it doesn't effect you.
What bugs me alot about this issue is how many want to label it racist or racism to secretly or unintentionally sweep generations of imperialism away like it neveh happened. When in 2015 we can still see the effects.
lol do you? You can see all my posts basically talk about cause and effect in regards to behavior, culture and the differences of culture in the way the word haole is used in negative ways or not used in negative ways. But the problem is you can't possiblely win or get sympathy in eliminating a possible racist word haole because it only effects you but still hold onto and cling to classism and other racist ideals even if its not intentional because it doesn't effect you.
What bugs me alot about this issue is how many want to label it racist or racism to secretly or unintentionally sweep generations of imperialism away like it neveh happened. When in 2015 we can still see the effects.
Actually what I see in all your posts is a bitterness toward the actions of a government that has manifested to the point where you apply it to all most commonly identifiable citizens of the government in such a way that fair judgement based on individual behavior is no longer possible.
If you say judgement is based on behavior, not skin color, but then go on to say behavior real "or perceived " to have happened in the past, then it's no longer based on an individual's behavior and instead it's judgement applied to a group of people based on things you feel others have done in the past.
Same as when you go on to expand your judgement to be applied to people based on class.
Your "class" argument is always leveled against white haoles. Never at the large Japanese upper class in Hawaii. That further diminishes your "class argument" because it is not applie equally.
Japan was an imperialistic country at one point. Same with China. In fact I have strong differences with the Chineese govern today. Yet I don't apply to all its citizens.
But it all is just talk. For someone who blasts haoles for always needing to "be right" it seems here in these forums the same behavior can be applied to you as well.
Alot of points about colonialism and ancestry have been brought up. It matters to some locals, particularly in regards to sovereignty but I won't get into it because of the rules and because honestly most people don't care. For most people it has nothing to do with how they perceive mainlanders, we lump it as haole because statistically it fits.
I would be very interested in your perspective about colonialism, the concept of right by conquest (whether it is a valid argument/concept), how King Kamahamaha's conquest unifying (mostly) the Hawaiian kingdom by force of arms is different than colonial right of conquest, and why there is the local assumption that if the U.S. had not taken over Hawaii, that it would have remained an independent kingdom, rather than a Russian, Japanese, Chinese, French, or British colony/territory (Pearl harbor is a unique strategic asset in the Pacific, and one of the major world power would fight to own it/use it).
This will need to be a PM, because the topic is a thread jack, and moves into some specifically banned discussion areas.
I had to concede to her that she had a good point.
There's a joke by a comedian Bill Burr. He tells of hearing a guy complaining about a Asian guy cutting in line in front of him...."This Asian Mothereffer just cut in line in front of me..." Then he pass on the story to his friend "Can you believe this Mothereffin' Asian just cut in line in front..."
and friend interrupts "whoa whoa whoa whats with the racism with the Asian guy."
And he says "whoa whoa I'm not racist.... I just preempt'ed the mothereffer. See I only just put the mothereffer in the front, thats not racist...
Last edited by lost_traveler1; 04-04-2015 at 01:50 PM..
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While I agree with most of your post...
