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The war would have laster longer no doubt however the question would be that there is a first for everything ... if not Japan and WWII when and where would have the nuke first been used as a weapon of war for mass destruction ... Korea? Cuba? Germany? Russia? U.S.A? Vietnam?
I think, except for a few holdouts, everyone agrees Japan needed a few nukes dropped on it.
But you bring up an interesting question. I think nukes, if not used in Japan and aftereffects known, would have been used tactically during the Korean War, by either side. Probably by us since MacArthur was a proponent of it's use.
I have read Gordon Prange.
I have read John Toland.
I have read Samual Eliot Morrison.
I am degreed in the subject.
I intended to teach it.
There is NO evidence to support the Japanese were pulling out of anywhere significant. In fact, even if they had wanted to they COULDN'T have pulled out of their Pacific holdings as they had virtually NO TRANSPORT VESSELS left and virutally NO NAVAL FORCES REMAINING to escort them home - and even if they would have - they had NO FUEL anywhere except Indonesia (where it was produced) because they had no means of transporting that fuel anywhere - so clearly your contention that the Japanese were withdrawing is wrong.
What were they intending to do?
Teleport?
Ken
Define "significant". They were running for the hills.
Define "significant". They were running for the hills.
Why don't YOU define it. YOU are the one claiming they were withdrawing.
WHERE were they withdrawing from?
And again - HOW were they doing so?
You keep claiming they were withdrawing but have yet to give ONE single shred of evidence to back up your claim - NOT EVEN ONE.
So where were they withdrawing from?
And how?
The only Japanese withdrawals that took place was where they were FORCED out or were falling back from untenuous positions. These were not strategic withdrawals back to Japan in any sense of the word, but rather tactical decisions that were FORCED upon the Japanese.
They were in no way, shape or form falling back to Japan and giving up their Empire. If you can prove otherwise then do so.
Again - Where were they withdrawing from?
And How were they supposedly accomplishing this miracle when they had virtually no navy or merchant marine left?
I've been waiting for you to answer that question for ages.
As far as I always knew, there was no official withdrawal by Japan. Maybe some localized ones to shift forces or forced, but I never heard/read about Japan formally withdrawing just to withdraw.
Why don't YOU define it. YOU are the one claiming they were withdrawing.
WHERE were they withdrawing from?
And again - HOW were they doing so?
You keep claiming they were withdrawing but have yet to give ONE single shred of evidence to back up your claim - NOT EVEN ONE.
So where were they withdrawing from?
And how?
The only Japanese withdrawals that took place was where they were FORCED out or were falling back from untenuous positions. These were not strategic withdrawals back to Japan in any sense of the word, but rather tactical decisions that were FORCED upon the Japanese.
They were in no way, shape or form falling back to Japan and giving up their Empire. If you can prove otherwise then do so.
Again - Where were they withdrawing from?
And How were they supposedly accomplishing this miracle when they had virtually no navy or merchant marine left?
I've been waiting for you to answer that question for ages.
Ken
They were withdrawing to defend the homeland from a potential Allied invasion...you know, the one that you keep saying not dropping the nukes would have FORCED us into, with heavy casualties?
So if they WEREN'T withdrawing, then the assumption that an Allied invasion would have brought huge casualties is erroneous...as you have indicated that the Japanese Army was "elsewhere". They weren't elsewhere though, they were in Japan.
The Japanese had soldiers both in Japan itself and in it's conquered territories, it wasn't a "one or the other" thing.
By mid 1945 the Japanese couldn't put a rowboat in the water without it getting bounced by American naval aircraft or a submarine, no Japanese were going to Japan from anywhere.
The Japanese had soldiers both in Japan itself and in it's conquered territories, it wasn't a "one or the other" thing.
By mid 1945 the Japanese couldn't put a rowboat in the water without it getting bounced by American naval aircraft or a submarine, no Japanese were going to Japan from anywhere.
I agree with that as well. Japan had maybe withdrawn some of it's forces in 1944, naturally since they lost some territories (Philipinnes, New Guinia, etc.). In 1944 also, Japan had also been preparing Island defences for an invasion. They were ready for it.
By 1945, certainly by mid 1945, the Allies ruled the air and the sea. Nothing floated or flew without being shot down.
Japan still had a number of troops in Manchuria, Southeast Asia, and parts of China at this time. They also had some 800,000 organized troops in Japan (not citizens or old men with bamboo spears, but well equiped soldiers, some armored brigades) preparing for the invasion. These were newly trained troops that had came of age since the war started, garrison troops stationed in Japan, some elite troops specifically created for the invasion, and some divisions withdrawn in 1944 from places like the Philipines.
During any invasion, Japan was certainly planning to use kamikazee air assets stationed (stuck) in mainland China or Korea to prevent a landing by the allies.
Irishtom is exactly right. The Japanese Army was enormous and there were still plenty of troops stationed in Japan for home defense. Not only that, but civilians were being armed. Add to that the example that in Okinawa civilians had leapt to their deaths from oceanside cliffs rather than be taken captive and the invasion of Japan was shaping up to be bloodbath for BOTH sides.
In regards to the bunker fuel situation for their vessels (what few of them remained), even in April of 1945 the situation was so grim that when the mighty Yamato went out on it's final sortee to defend Okinawa it only had enough fuel for a one-way mission - in part because they did not anticipate the ship returning from that suicide mission, but more to the point the Japanese were unable to scrape up enough fuel for a round-trip anyway and in fact they barely managed to get enough together for that ship to even reach Okinawa. After this mission there was essentially NO oil fuel left in all of Japan. They had scraped the bottom of the barrel (so to speak) for this final mission. They still had plenty of fuel in Indonesia, but no way to get it back to Japan because their tankers had pretty much all been sunk.
In short, by mid-1945 the Japanese army was essentially "locked in place" - unable to move anyone (or anything) anywhere over the ocean and US submarines and carrier-based attack aircraft had pretty much run out of targets at sea. There was almost nothing out there left to sink - so there is NO way the Japanese were withdrawing from anywhere at that point unless they could do it by foot - and although the Japanese may have thought the Emperor a God, there was no way he was going to part any waters to bring his troops home (even if he decided he wanted to).
Irishtom is exactly right. The Japanese Army was enormous and there were still plenty of troops stationed in Japan for home defense. Not only that, but civilians were being armed. Add to that the example that in Okinawa civilians had leapt to their deaths from oceanside cliffs rather than be taken captive and the invasion of Japan was shaping up to be bloodbath for BOTH sides.
In regards to the bunker fuel situation for their vessels (what few of them remained), even in April of 1945 the situation was so grim that when the mighty Yamato went out on it's final sortee to defend Okinawa it only had enough fuel for a one-way mission - in part because they did not anticipate the ship returning from that suicide mission, but more to the point the Japanese were unable to scrape up enough fuel for a round-trip anyway and in fact they barely managed to get enough together for that ship to even reach Okinawa. After this mission there was essentially NO oil fuel left in all of Japan. They had scraped the bottom of the barrel (so to speak) for this final mission. They still had plenty of fuel in Indonesia, but no way to get it back to Japan because their tankers had pretty much all been sunk.
In short, by mid-1945 the Japanese army was essentially "locked in place" - unable to move anyone (or anything) anywhere over the ocean and US submarines and carrier-based attack aircraft had pretty much run out of targets at sea. There was almost nothing out there left to sink - so there is NO way the Japanese were withdrawing from anywhere at that point unless they could do it by foot - and although the Japanese may have thought the Emperor a God, there was no way he was going to part any waters to bring his troops home (even if he decided he wanted to).
All the more reason they SHOULD HAVE SURRENDERED. It all could have ended very quickly, very easily, and without the bomb. All it would have taken was surrender.
But wait, their leaders didn't CARE about their people. They didn't care that they were starving and didn't care how many would die. The ONLY way they were going to surrender was if they were FORCED to do so. In fact, they would have continued fighting even after the bomb if the Emperor himself had not stepped in to force the issue.
Thanks for proving my point.
Ken
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