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Just an aside to this discussion. I'm a Jewish U.S. citizen. My non-Jewish wife of 47 years was born in Germany (she’s a U.S. citizen as well). On her birth certificate are stamped swastikas! Anyway, her mother gave me her husband’s iron cross which he was awarded during WWII. Her husband (my wife’s dad), was in the Luftwaffe (ground forces). My dad, also in WWII, was in the Army Air Corp!
This summer we’re having one of our German relatives coming to live with us (a very nice 17 year old boy, wanting to learn English). I’m going to give him the iron cross and tell him to keep it in the family. It was an award honorably won by his great grandfather.
My dad’s name tag and my FIL's iron cross.
My grandfather's (dad's dad) WWI dog tags (USN) and his WWII tags (US Coast Guard). He figured, if he sent his two sons to war he was going to get involved himself! We're a very pugnacious family.
My grandfather (mom's side) in his dough-boy uniform from WWI.
Granted, there were some bad things done, but there's a world of difference between internment camps for Japanese Americans, designed to safely hold them until the war was over, or the murder factory at Auschwitz designed to kill as many people as possible, and use their remains for field fertilization. Or between not telling a number of people they had syphilis that they contracted elsewhere, so that it could be studied (definitely a crime in my opinion) or hanging 4 year old children in a city square because a German soldier was killed in that town.
Objectively, both sides did bad things; one side also did absolutely evil things on a horrifying scale in a highly organized and deliberate manner.
Which side was that?
"German cities will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude. To achieve this end, there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go"
"The ruthless mass bombing of congested cities is as great a threat to the integrity of the human spirit as anything that has yet occurred on this planet. There is no military or political advantage which can justify this blasphemy"
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you"
Last edited by Thatsright19; 05-31-2015 at 06:21 AM..
Objectively, both sides did bad things; one side also did absolutely evil things on a horrifying scale in a highly organized and deliberate manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19
Which side was that?
Moral equivalence. I know of no one who will say that events such as the bombing of Dresden were anything short of horrific. But to imply that the two sides were equally evil is to be willfully obtuse. Look at it this way: if the Nazis had not attacked the Allies, there would have been no bombings; Dresden and the other cities would have been left alone. But if the Allies had not bombed Dresden et al, the war would have just dragged on longer, and even more soldiers and civilians -- as equally innocent as were the Dresden victims -- would have been killed.
One side started it and would have certainly continued it as long as they could have gotten away with it; the other side had to do what had to be done in order to stop them.
Moral equivalence. I know of no one who will say that events such as the bombing of Dresden were anything short of horrific. But to imply that the two sides were equally evil is to be willfully obtuse. Look at it this way: if the Nazis had not attacked the Allies, there would have been no bombings; Dresden and the other cities would have been left alone. But if the Allies had not bombed Dresden et al, the war would have just dragged on longer, and even more soldiers and civilians -- as equally innocent as were the Dresden victims -- would have been killed.
One side started it and would have certainly continued it as long as they could have gotten away with it; the other side had to do what had to be done in order to stop them.
So the severity of the behavior of our enemies dictates our behavior? It makes it acceptable to go down to their level morally? Who starts something should have no bearing. If someone kills my wife, does that give me the right to dismember and torture them (hell, maybe I can have at their entire family too)? After all, no harm would have come to them if that person had not killed my wife.
Is loading up a thousand bombers with incendiary bombs and dropping them in crowded cities in a methodical manner any less barbaric than a concentration camp? Are the intentions much different?
I can understand how the world got caught up in revenge and wanting to punish the Germans. The fever at the time held EACH GERMAN personally responsible. Defeating Germany at that point wasn't enough. The people of the world wanted utter annihilation. But ask yourself...does the U.s government and the CIA do things abroad U.s citizens don't agree with? There were certainly people in Germany at the time who probably never agreed...but got swept up in fear and madness.
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you"
and that's not even getting into the crimes of the Red Army.
The official Red Army Decree: "The hour of revenge has struck. Do not count days. Do not count miles. Count ONLY the numbers of Germans you have killed. Kill the German. This is the cry of your Russian Earth. KILL THE GERMAN."
Is loading up a thousand bombers with incendiary bombs and dropping them in crowded cities in a methodical manner any less barbaric than a concentration camp? Are the intentions much different?
Objectively, no, there's not much difference. But the intentions are entirely different. The concentration camps were designed to kill off the Reich's "undesirables," and they would have kept at it until they were stopped by force or they ran out of victims, whichever came first. The cities were bombed out of a desire to force the Nazis to surrender; once they finally did, the cities were no longer bombed. If the Allies were really as evil as you seem to be suggesting, we would have just kept right on bombing, surrender or no surrender, until not a German building remained standing. After all, what was to stop us, other than our own consciences?
I have read that, in the last days of the war, German civilians in the East were desperate to flee westward, to get away from the advancing Red Army. But the civilians in the West were content to just stay put and wait for the Americans to come and liberate them, because they knew that life under U.S. control was better than not only life under the Soviets, but even life under their own government.
Objectively, no, there's not much difference. But the intentions are entirely different. The concentration camps were designed to kill off the Reich's "undesirables," and they would have kept at it until they were stopped by force or they ran out of victims, whichever came first. The cities were bombed out of a desire to force the Nazis to surrender; once they finally did, the cities were no longer bombed. If the Allies were really as evil as you seem to be suggesting, we would have just kept right on bombing, surrender or no surrender, until not a German building remained standing. After all, what was to stop us, other than our own consciences?
I have read that, in the last days of the war, German civilians in the East were desperate to flee westward, to get away from the advancing Red Army. But the civilians in the West were content to just stay put and wait for the Americans to come and liberate them, because they knew that life under U.S. control was better than not only life under the Soviets, but even life under their own government.
True, I read stories like four Americans in a Jeep getting lost & rolling into a German-held town and all of a sudden the entire garrison rushes to surrender. Of course things like that only happened in 1945.
Also a note that is almost always omitted, the United States handed over 400,000 German POWs to the Soviet Union after the war, knowing full well that the Soviet Union did not sign the Geneva convention.... It was an easy way for the US to punish them without making out the Truman administration to be looking like mass murderers/setting up their own gulags.
Another note... the US kept the Jews in the former concentration/internment camps up until 1948 (for 3 years after the war ended!), denying to them the immigration to the US, Britain, or Palestine/Israel. People often forget that the US had a lot of anti-jewish sentiment back home as well.
If you dig deeper there are some rather uncomfortable facts that are omitted in popular versions of high school history books.
where they were fed and given medical care...these internment camps were turned into hospitals
There was nowhere else to go...they weren't going to release them back into war torn Europe...they were kept and treated until the Jewish nation was created...
and that's not even getting into the crimes of the Red Army.
The official Red Army Decree: "The hour of revenge has struck. Do not count days. Do not count miles. Count ONLY the numbers of Germans you have killed. Kill the German. This is the cry of your Russian Earth. KILL THE GERMAN."
this was the effect...Germany invading Russia and killing millions was the cause
had Germany NOT invaded Russia this war decree never would have been...certainly not heartfelt
"German cities will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude. To achieve this end, there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go"
"The ruthless mass bombing of congested cities is as great a threat to the integrity of the human spirit as anything that has yet occurred on this planet. There is no military or political advantage which can justify this blasphemy"
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you"
Seems to me that when you mobilize your nation to for Total War in order to 1) Conquer and Enslave a good chunk of the world and 2) Conduct Mass Extermination & Genocide against selected innocents, you might- MIGHT! - want to be prepared for all kinds of repercussions including resistance, occupation, and the odd firebombing of one of your cities.
The Germans wanted total war. They got it. Crying foul is just a childish tactic to turn the tables and play the victim.
Good grief. Comparing Auschwitz and the Einsatzgruppen to Dresden. Defending the Nazis.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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