Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Interestingly enough, this whole conversation was started because the roof on my apartment complex was getting replaced. I was watching some of the workers and realized that the roof on American residential construction is only a thin piece of plywood, plus some felt and a layer of shingles nail gunned in place. It just seems to cheap to me. It's funny to think that my computer desk is built out of better wood than my roof.
Someone here mentioned truss connector plates. I really can't see how truss connector plates would be better than nails. What happens if there is a fire? I'd imagine that because of the heat expansion, that portion of the house is going to collapse. I'm guessing that nails were ditched because they are more expensive and time consuming.
As we've found out in this thread, construction materials are chosen based on materials available and "because that's how it's always been done". I'm okay with that. A European-style home wouldn't be right in the US, nor would an American home be right in Europe.
However, let's compare the average European interior to the average American interior. A modest home in the US will probably have cheap floors in the kitchen, and crappy carpet throughout the rest of the home. Faucets and other accessories will come from the lowest bidder. You have to pay a lot more for a luxury home to get decent floors and accessories.
The thing is - regardless of the roof type, I can only speak for myself, but my roofs have always performed very well - no leaks, and no falling apart, and no high utility bills. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why put tile roofs on homes around here when 1) we have severe storms which would create missiles basically, and 2) what we have is operational, cost efficient, and energy efficient (not to mention has a 30 year life span at least)?
When you're talking about the average European interior - you're comparing high end European homes to cheap American homes or apartments. Let's compare apples to apples. I've been in low end, and medium end, and high end European housing - and each level has it's corresponding type in the US. You can find cheap interiors in Europe, and cheap interiors in the US. You can find high end home finishes in Europe (and you'll pay for them dearly) and in the US (and once again, you'll pay for them dearly).
We have what I would call an upper middle class home in Texas. We have stone and hardwood floors. We have stucco interior walls. We have high end carpeting ONLY in two minor bedrooms - the rest of the home is hardwood and stone (travertine, which is common in both the US and Europe). Our fixtures are middle to upper end and were all readily available. In fact, we have some beautiful light and faucet fixtures and they weren't cost prohibitive and are definitely "upper end." We didn't have to drive to Dallas or NYC or whatever to find them, either - they were readily available (and apparently in high demand) in our mid sized Texas city. We have "real" tile in the bathrooms, and we have natural stone countertops (soapstone but we had a wide range of choices). We do not have a luxury home. Our 2500 square foot home in a mid sized Texas city, in the suburbs, is worth about $260,000 (about 230,000 Euros), on a lot that is about 3/4 of an acre. That's $104 a square foot. We live in the suburbs. If we lived closer to the city center, our home would be about $112 a square foot, which would make it about $280K, or 248,000 euros.
By the way, Ikea - a European store - is the bane of household furnishings and fixtures here in the US. OMG, I can't begin to tell you how much I dislike that store. Talk about cheap stuff. Ugh. No thanks. But Ikea does well in certain markets in both the US and in Europe.
Texas? I've heard horrors about slab repair here. I'm originally from NC and out there, only the cheaper homes are build on slabs.
I live in Texas, sold real estate here for years, and rarely ran into any significant foundation issues. Both slab and pier and beam homes are common in my area in Texas.
When we upgraded all the flooring in our current home (20 years old, slab construction), there wasn't even a hairline crack in our foundation. It was as smooth as a sheet of glass. I hated to cover it up with hardwood and stone flooring, it was so perfect!
There are areas that are more prone to problems but not all of Texas (a huge state) is prone to foundation problems.
I still can't find a single source for your claim that several people a day were killed by falling roof tiles in Germany. I have never heard on German media that someone was killed by falling roof tiles. I would never deny that this never happened, but surely not several people a day. It's not uncommon that people get killed in mighty storms. Most of them get killed by falling trees and branches.
I lived there while it was happening. I gave you sources stating specifically that many people were killed by falling debris (which included roof tiles). Sorry if you don't believe me but I'm telling you the truth.
But I went ahead and googled this and here are some news articles stating incidents of people being killed by falling roof tiles during European storms - not that hard to find. BBC News | EUROPE | Storms wreak havoc across Europe
Quote:
The fire department warned people to stay indoors to avoid falling roof tiles and branches,
Another dog walker was seriously injured in an Enschede park, and dozens of people were hit by flying tree branches and roof tiles in Utrecht, police and Dutch television reported.
Conditions were very severe in the south and this was compounded by the fact the gales occurred during daylight hours, when many people are out and about and as a result there were scores of injuries due to flying and broken glass, roof tiles, fallen branches and other debris. Sadly, 47 people lost their lives making it the worst weather related disaster in the UK since the Great Storm surge of January 1953. One lucky survivor was the actor Gorden Kaye from the TV Series 'Allo 'Allo who survived an advertising board crashing onto his car, which resulted in him having serious head injuries and putting him into a coma.
The damage done by the gales was enormous. Millions of trees were either damaged or uprooted blocking roads, scores of buildings suffered structural damage and the insurance costs were massive.
If Americans would love their homes as much as Germans (for example) do, they would put more pride into upkeeping their homes. Maybe it's different in Texas, where houses are a lot newer, but in Massachusetts for example the amount of rundown houses is shocking.
I wouldn't know - I've never been to Massachusetts, in part because the US is so huge, making generalizations pretty inaccurate. I've seen rundown homes in both the US and in Europe , and yes, in Germany too.
Quote:
When people would love their houses, they would equip their houses right from the beginning with more distinct installations instead of just buying a house where most installations are given by the builder.
You're talking about "spec" homes. But many homes in the US are custom built homes and the homeowners pick out every single appliance, fixture, etc. Both types of homes are plentiful in the US.
Quote:
The relationship to a house is much stronger when people build their house on their own instead of just buying a house. It's absurd to deny this.
I didn't deny it.
It's also absurd to deny that Americans who custom build or renovate or remodel their homes don't love and take pride in their homes as much as any European in the same situation.
Quote:
Sorry, but that sounds so dishonest to me. Just compare the kitchens and bathrooms from listings at zillow with those at immobilienscout.
Sorry you don't believe me. I'm a very honest person. By the way, as a former real estate agent, I learned early on not to rely on information on Zillow. Check out realtor.com instead. And compare apples to apples and price point to comparable price point.
Quote:
Reproducing antique design is for me like the Chinese that recreate a medieval European town or like an architect that draft a building in Art Nouveau. By doing so, antique furniture or old buildings are devalued in my opinion. It seems disrespectful to me towards our ancestors. But that's just my personal feeling.
It's just my personal opinion that mass produced "sleek, contemporary" furniture is tacky and usually ugly. To each his own, I guess. I personally also prefer genuine antiques and vintage fixtures, which is why I incorporate them into my own home as often as possible. But it's not just MY personal preference. The popularity of vintage and antique architectural elements and furniture in the US is proof that plenty of other Americans appreciate the genuine items as well.
Interesting. 230 Euros a month comes to around $275/$300 a month. I think that's generally what the same utilities would cost in most US homes - certainly that's the top of what our personal combined utility costs are per month, for 2500 square feet, which is about 755 meters of space. Sometimes if we have a very dry summer and I want to keep the grass green, our water bill can push that utility total up to about $350 but that's just a few months out of the year.
Just for comparison - not criticizing anything.
My example was very specific. Just about 15% of all housing units are heated with district heating. It's more common that houses have their own central heating system. That means additional costs. About 100 Euro per year for the chimney sweeper, about 100 Euro per year for regularly maintenance and you can calculate with 400-500 Euro, that you have to save each year for replacing the boiler and burner about every 20 years (that cost normally about 8,000-10,000 Euro). With district heating you don't have these expenses and that makes district heating in my opinion quite affordable.
Fix costs / variable costs:
- Space heating: 600 Euro / 400 Euro
- Heating tap water: 300 Euro / 50 Euro
- Drinking water: 100 Euro / 250 Euro
- Electrictiy: 100 Euro / 1,000 Euro
That's a total of 2,800 Euro per year, if you subtract the costs of 600-700 Euro that you normally have if you have your own heating sytem in your house, it would be just 2,100-2,200 Euro or about 180 Euro per month (for 5 people and a house with about 200m² living space). That is very inexpensive by German standards.
According to data from Destatis the average monthly costs for utilities (electricity, heating and water) by size of the household in Germany (for 2013):
1 person household: 106 Euro
2 person household: 174 Euro
3 person household: 199 Euro
4 person household: 221 Euro
I'm always sceptical about such statistics, but in my experience the data seems realistic.
The same for the U.S. (data from the consumer expenditure survey):
1 person household: 138 USD
2 person household: 220 USD
3 person household: 240 USD
4 person household: 260 USD
Very important note, the German data are average (by excluding households with extremely high incomes). Whereas the data for the U.S. are median. That makes it very difficult to compare these data.
But at least the cost increases between the different household sizes are quite similar in both countries.
Especially electricity is in my opinion way too expensive in Germany. I'm very sceptical about our energy transition.
BTW: 2,500 square feet are about 230m² and not 755m². A 755m² house would be enormous, almost a palace
My example was very specific. Just about 15% of all housing units are heated with district heating. It's more common that houses have their own central heating system. That means additional costs. About 100 Euro per year for the chimney sweeper, about 100 Euro per year for regularly maintenance and you can calculate with 400-500 Euro, that you have to save each year for replacing the boiler and burner about every 20 years (that cost normally about 8,000-10,000 Euro). With district heating you don't have these expenses and that makes district heating in my opinion quite affordable.
Fix costs / variable costs:
- Space heating: 600 Euro / 400 Euro
- Heating tap water: 300 Euro / 50 Euro
- Drinking water: 100 Euro / 250 Euro
- Electrictiy: 100 Euro / 1,000 Euro
That's a total of 2,800 Euro per year, if you subtract the costs of 600-700 Euro that you normally have if you have your own heating sytem in your house, it would be just 2,100-2,200 Euro or about 180 Euro per month (for 5 people and a house with about 200m² living space). That is very inexpensive by German standards.
According to data from Destatis the average monthly costs for utilities (electricity, heating and water) by size of the household in Germany (for 2013):
1 person household: 106 Euro
2 person household: 174 Euro
3 person household: 199 Euro
4 person household: 221 Euro
I'm always sceptical about such statistics, but in my experience the data seems realistic.
The same for the U.S. (data from the consumer expenditure survey):
1 person household: 138 USD
2 person household: 220 USD
3 person household: 240 USD
4 person household: 260 USD
Very important note, the German data are average (by excluding households with extremely high incomes). Whereas the data for the U.S. are median. That makes it very difficult to compare these data.
But at least the cost increases between the different household sizes are quite similar in both countries.
Especially electricity is in my opinion way too expensive in Germany. I'm very sceptical about our energy transition.
You were discussing your specific utility bills so I gave you my specific utility bills.
Many homes don't even use gas (if they do, their electric bills are generally lower).
So that comes to about $140 a month - heck, round it up to $200 a month on average if you like, for Americans.
I would say that the differences are negligible when it comes to price. Besides that, the US is several times larger than Germany and has a wider range of prices for utilities, making a true comparison even more difficult.
I don't understand why you would subtract the costs of a central heating system in a German home though. Those yearly costs seem high - significantly higher than the average yearly cost of a central heating system in a typical US home. Maybe those figures aren't accurate, I don't know (being unfamiliar with a boiler type of heating system).
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 08-26-2016 at 01:55 PM..
I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Houses there are built with roofs that last 50-75 years. Floors are usually solid wood, marble, or stone. All interior doors are made with solid wood. Walls are more solid feeling (knock on a wall here in the US and it sounds hollow). However, things like plumbing and insulation are very similar. American homes might even have better insulation.
Some people think that because many European homes are hundreds of years old, they are better built. I suppose it's true. But even the newer homes in Europe are build better. I rented a house in France that was built in the 1950s and it had all of the features I mentioned above.
Even the $500,000 home that my friend's parents bought doesn't feel as sturdy as the crappy studio I rented in Paris years back.
Why are construction methods so different between the US and other parts of the world?
Why are people so fixated on comparing the USA to other countries? Hey, compare the USA housing to Nigeria next OK? Or maybe Mexico and then Nicaragua...Let's have some parity!
About the roof tile thing, we are just talking past each other. I just say I have never heard that someone in Germany was killed by tossing roof tiles, but I think that this can happen, but it's surely extremely rare. Of course tossing roof tiles are extremely dangerous.
In Germany roof tiles made out of concrete or clay aren't that much more expensive than asphalt shingles. The cheaperst roof tiles seems to be cheaper than the cheapest asphalt shingles. So it makes not that much sense to use asphalt shingles in Germany. I guess there is a huge price difference in the U.S. between asphalt shingles and roof tiles, so it doesn't make sense to use roof tiles.
Quote:
I wouldn't know - I've never been to Massachusetts, in part because the US is so huge, making generalizations pretty inaccurate. I've seen rundown homes in both the US and in Europe , and yes, in Germany too.
My personal experience in the U.S. is limited to Fitchburg in Massachusetts. It's a quite poor place and it's pretty rundown. I think it's pretty normal that this has shaped my view of the U.S. Meanwhile I know that it's completely different in other parts of the U.S. When I see listings for houses or apartments in Florida or Texas, that is so much better than what you mostly find in the North Eastern part of the U.S. It's not a reproach, but sometims I have the impression that quite a few Americans don't know how other parts of the U.S. looks like. Surely a result of the sheer size of the U.S.
It's very interesting to see the differences in the age of the housing stock in different parts of the U.S. For example 61% of the housing units in Boston were built before 1950. In Cleveland it's even higher with 66%. Or 67% in Rochester. In Dallas just 12% were built before 1950, in Austin just 6%. It seems to be like a completely different world.
Sorry you don't believe me. I'm a very honest person. By the way, as a former real estate agent, I learned early on not to rely on information on Zillow. Check out realtor.com instead. And compare apples to apples and price point to comparable price point.
I had a short look into realtor.com. At least the realtors there seem to put a lot more effort into the listings. They are able to make sharp images, at zillow.com I have often the impression that most realtors have never taken a photo before. Can it be that zillow.com attracts more listings for ramshackle hats? And realtor.com more listings for nicer homes?
But the kitchens still look the same
I had a short look into realtor.com. At least the realtors there seem to put a lot more effort into the listings. They are able to make sharp images, at zillow.com I have often the impression that most realtors have never taken a photo before. Can it be that zillow.com attracts more listings for ramshackle hats? And realtor.com more listings for nicer homes?
But the kitchens still look the same
A "Realtor" is a member of a professional organization of real estate agents. Theoretically, a Realtor is held to higher standards than the run-of-the-mill real estate agent (only members of the organization can call themselves "Realtors"), but of course that's probably not a guarantee one way or another. However, the visual quality of Realtor.com entries is controllable by the organization.
I think many Europeans would consider this way to build a house ridiculous and fake. Wooden walls with plastic wrapping, exterior siding with PVC Stones sticked on the wall to gave the house a false look of solidity. Stapled asphalt cardboard shingles for the roof. Window elements that seem so lightweight that a single builder can handle them easily. PVC flooring in tile optic for the bathrooms. Poorly attached electrical sockets. And plasterboard on the walls, on the ceilings, just everywhere. And the drywall is just painted. No wallpapers? And the insulation just consists of a little bit insulation material in the hollows of the exterior walls. And this insulation layer is broken by installations such as power lines.
I don't think that the construction method is per se bad, it's ok for a temporary building. But it's horrible for the price that such a house cost. Such a house maybe seems reasonable priced for the size of the house, but considering the quality? I think it's completely overpriced. A facade out of plastic? that's so ridiculous. And asphalt roof shingles for a human dwelling? Our small bird-house in the garden has asphalt roof shingles
I think many Europeans would consider this way to build a house ridiculous and fake. Wooden walls with plastic wrapping, exterior siding with PVC Stones sticked on the wall to gave the house a false look of solidity. Stapled asphalt cardboard shingles for the roof. Window elements that seem so lightweight that a single builder can handle them easily. PVC flooring in tile optic for the bathrooms. Poorly attached electrical sockets. And plasterboard on the walls, on the ceilings, just everywhere. And the drywall is just painted. No wallpapers? And the insulation just consists of a little bit insulation material in the hollows of the exterior walls. And this insulation layer is broken by installations such as power lines.
I don't think that the construction method is per se bad, it's ok for a temporary building. But it's horrible for the price that such a house cost. Such a house maybe seems reasonable priced for the size of the house, but considering the quality? I think it's completely overpriced. A facade out of plastic? that's so ridiculous. And asphalt roof shingles for a human dwelling? Our small bird-house in the garden has asphalt roof shingles
Do you have a video or diagram of typical housing construction in Germany to compare?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Stones sticked on the wall to gave the house a false look of solidity. Stapled asphalt cardboard shingles for the roof. Window elements that seem so lightweight that a single builder can handle them easily. PVC flooring in tile optic for the bathrooms. Poorly attached electrical sockets. And plasterboard on the walls, on the ceilings, just everywhere. And the drywall is just painted. No wallpapers? And the insulation just consists of a little bit insulation material in the hollows of the exterior walls. And this insulation layer is broken by installations such as power lines. 
