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Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, a few people that have come out have been skeptical of the Poly-Fill being a long-term solution... and only the Poly-Fill Sales People have claimed it would fix the heaving-- just as they're handing me a contract that says it's NOT guaranteed to fix anything. I'm 50/50 on whether Poly-Fill will be a long-term stabilization fix solution to keep the concrete that hasn't moved yet from moving in the future, but fixing the heaved portion? It looks like Poly-fill isn't the sure-fire magic bullet I had hoped for. It would cost me a few thousand just to let them try...
The piers (or Poly-Fill) for the entire deck is a "peace of mind" choice I'm making, and I don't know that anyone would otherwise saddle the GC with that expense... even though the consensus is that the concrete sub skipped a couple of standard proper practices. Ask me again in a few years and if the deck cracks & settles even more, then, yes, I have an expensive mess on my hands.
I guess I need a happy medium to correct the concrete sub's mistakes and, yes, maybe replace ALL that travertine with something different.
The current travertine coping is 12" wide and the Bond Beam is 13" wide in most areas. Since the coping overlaps into the pool by about 1", there was about 2" of Bond Beam reveal when the deck was poured. They should have used 16" wide coping and trimmed it all to 14". It occurred to me have a concrete contractor carefully saw cut 2" off of the inner perimeter of the deck and replace ALL the coping to completely cover the Bond Beam... or close to it. BUT, there are 4 grounding "bonding" copper wires on each of the 4 sides that ground the rebar in the Bond Beam to the deck rebar. If they cut through those, I'll have a bigger problem... And "carefully" cut when it comes to a concrete saw is probably an oxymoron to most concrete subs.
I explained the GC liability poorly-- Yes, the GC is responsible for the heaved portion of the concrete & cracked travertine.... and they never did fill the expansion gap between the coping & deck with sealant-- which may have been the root cause in the first place-- by allowing water to enter that gap & freeze. Piecing those estimates alone, it's about $5K - $6K. Since I was otherwise slated to owe him money before the contract dissolution, I'm technically about $4K ahead today; before any of these remaining fixes. So I figured if I could properly fix all of this for $7K or less, I'd not pursue anything legal with him, since the legal fees would be at least $1.5K, and avoiding the time & aggravation of legalities is worth something to me too. But at the end of the day-- NONE of this would be necessary IF they did a proper job.
I would only undergo a lawsuit under extreme circumstances (like if someone ran me over with a truck).
As this swim season winds down, I've yet to do anything about this heaved concrete except remove several broken Travertine coping tiles. Removing the tiles revealed a lot more about what occurred and I'm back to thinking that the INNER perimeter heaved, more than the outer perimeter sunk. I've talked to a few "foam fill" companies, a foundation pier company, a couple of concrete contractors, a couple of neighborhood pool builders and one pool "remodeler". It's hard to get a consensus, but the pool builders are the most unbiased and they tell me that the way the concrete contractor poured the initial deck was WRONG and that will need to be correct or it may crack the bond beam of the pool shell. Once I can find someone to do it, I'm thinking of having the concrete deck "cut back" by about 5"-- clearing it completely from the Bond Beam with a lot of room to spare. and then filling that gap with a decorative stone and finishing with a dedicated, larger expansion joint. I know a "stone guy" that will practically give me the stone,.. I just need to find some masons to shape it into rectangles and grout it in there. I added a couple of pictures-- and ALL opinions are appreciated.
I suppose there could be several possible scenarios to repair...
Which one is the "right one"? Hell if I know! But, I can say for sure...
Reiterating this-
Quote:
Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr
If the pool contractor isn't making this right (and if I remember correctly he hired the concrete contractor), it time to get an attorney involved. I don't see this going anywhere fast OR right. And you'll be out a "Butt Load" of Dinero!
Granted, the attorney is going to be some money- but geeze! That ain't right- and you can't fix stupid. But, it can certainly be replaced with competent!
...and add this-
Hire a PE that has some background with pools. If they're somewhat local, they'll already be familiar with the soils. The one possible "flaw" I see in your plan is you're still relying on the surrounding soils to support the slab- depending on what those soils and/or conditions they are in.
I suppose there could be several possible scenarios to repair...
Which one is the "right one"? Hell if I know! But, I can say for sure...
Reiterating this-
...and add this-
Hire a PE that has some background with pools. If they're somewhat local, they'll already be familiar with the soils. The one possible "flaw" I see in your plan is you're still relying on the surrounding soils to support the slab- depending on what those soils and/or conditions they are in.
Thank you. Yes, in addition to all those trades I had over to zero in on the proper fix, I also hired an Inspection Service, and the inspector was a licensed PE. His focus at the time was how best to "stabilize" the concrete slab... but I showed him the photos from "concrete pour day" and he was in agreement that the sub skipped steps that would have prevented the concrete from moving and the at GC (or concrete sub) was negligent for NOT applying sealant to the coping-to-deck expansion joint.
When I fired the GC in May, it turns out that it wasn't only his pool-building acumen that was inferior-- it was also his billing & accounting. It was my intent to complete the pool build by hiring my own subcontractors and then offer him the settlement... But he immediately signed over a Lien Waiver, absolving me of any further payments. I wonder if he knew he had botched my pool (how could he not) and just decided to agree to cut ties. I still don't know if he knew I owed him as much money as I did.
So, once I came across all this remedial work, I figured I had "house money" to play with up to a certain point. From an objective point of view, I'd probably be able to sue him for the cracked coping and the heaved concrete. Fixing those things would be about $5000, which is less--than I owed him.
The deck poured against the bond beam and too small a expansion gap is POOR PRACTICE... And also that the concrete sub did NOT compact the soil or use decomposed granite for drainage is sloppy and confirms my thought at the time that he just wanted to race through my job so he could get on with the next one. Other than the heaving and cracked tile, there's been no damage due to the concrete up against the bond beam... but I've had two unbiased expert pool builders tell me that its a risk waiting to happen. So, I think I would have a tougher time collecting financial compensation on rework because of poor practice that hadn't really caused any damage yet. Now my best ammunition for collecting a financial settlement would be my Inspection Report by the PE, who stated that it was the practices of the GC & sub that led to the damage I did have... but preventative stuff? I just don't know.
At the end of the day-- with this fancy stone inlay ( which really boils down to a choice & not a necessity) and replacing the cracked Travertine coping, I'll be in it for about $8-10K. Now that's a bit MORE than I owed him, but other than the satisfaction of inflicting some pain onto that arrogant SOB concrete sub, there isn't enough financial gain to jump through the legal hoops. Yes, the lien waiver does guarantee that I legally don't owe the GC any money, so that shouldn't be part of the factor, I prefer not to take advantage of people that way.... even though that GC has brought me just as much frustration as swimming pool.
Ask me again when they saw-cut away some of the deck and expose the "soil-side" of the Bond Beam. If I see cracks in that side of the Bond Beam, then I do have REAL DAMAGE due to that concrete deck... and I'll absolutely sue them for that, because that would probably cost upwards of $25K to fix.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Your plan looks good, I would run it by a few local masonry contractors, as they will be more familiar with your soils, materials, failures, and positive, correct experiences that have bailed themselves out. (and they don't have to go back and repair / maintain.
I would not use Crushed granite, as it decomposes / crumbles. I would take advice of locals, but my most stable fills have been 5/8 minus crushed rock with fines. I would place and compact (with added minimal moisture) to get very solid compaction under border of new tiles. probably do the compaction / watering 3x and then allow to dry before adding groat / subsurface mortar (which should also be placed on damp substrate).
I would be most concerned about future cracking of mortar / loosening of decorative tile 'expansion joint'.
As you now know... soils / concrete / tiles move, especially around pools. (not knowing your climate and soil types)
Thank you. Yes, in addition to all those trades I had over to zero in on the proper fix, I also hired an Inspection Service, and the inspector was a licensed PE. His focus at the time was how best to "stabilize" the concrete slab... but I showed him the photos from "concrete pour day" and he was in agreement that the sub skipped steps that would have prevented the concrete from moving and the at GC (or concrete sub) was negligent for NOT applying sealant to the coping-to-deck expansion joint.
When I fired the GC in May, it turns out that it wasn't only his pool-building acumen that was inferior-- it was also his billing & accounting. It was my intent to complete the pool build by hiring my own subcontractors and then offer him the settlement... But he immediately signed over a Lien Waiver, absolving me of any further payments. I wonder if he knew he had botched my pool (how could he not) and just decided to agree to cut ties. I still don't know if he knew I owed him as much money as I did.
So, once I came across all this remedial work, I figured I had "house money" to play with up to a certain point. From an objective point of view, I'd probably be able to sue him for the cracked coping and the heaved concrete. Fixing those things would be about $5000, which is less--than I owed him.
The deck poured against the bond beam and too small a expansion gap is POOR PRACTICE... And also that the concrete sub did NOT compact the soil or use decomposed granite for drainage is sloppy and confirms my thought at the time that he just wanted to race through my job so he could get on with the next one. Other than the heaving and cracked tile, there's been no damage due to the concrete up against the bond beam... but I've had two unbiased expert pool builders tell me that its a risk waiting to happen. So, I think I would have a tougher time collecting financial compensation on rework because of poor practice that hadn't really caused any damage yet. Now my best ammunition for collecting a financial settlement would be my Inspection Report by the PE, who stated that it was the practices of the GC & sub that led to the damage I did have... but preventative stuff? I just don't know.
At the end of the day-- with this fancy stone inlay ( which really boils down to a choice & not a necessity) and replacing the cracked Travertine coping, I'll be in it for about $8-10K. Now that's a bit MORE than I owed him, but other than the satisfaction of inflicting some pain onto that arrogant SOB concrete sub, there isn't enough financial gain to jump through the legal hoops. Yes, the lien waiver does guarantee that I legally don't owe the GC any money, so that shouldn't be part of the factor, I prefer not to take advantage of people that way.... even though that GC has brought me just as much frustration as swimming pool.
Ask me again when they saw-cut away some of the deck and expose the "soil-side" of the Bond Beam. If I see cracks in that side of the Bond Beam, then I do have REAL DAMAGE due to that concrete deck... and I'll absolutely sue them for that, because that would probably cost upwards of $25K to fix.
Yeah, why get into a skirmish if you do not need to. Life is too short.
Had a concrete pool deck poured last August. Over the winter, it "shifted" and now has a 5/8" step adjacent to the coping tiles. I think what happened is that the outer perimeter sunk down , driving the inner perimeter up around some fulcrum line somewhere in the middle. Concrete contractor was a *******-- didn't compact the soil or use gravel underlayment.
A concrete company quoted me $6K to replace the "heaved" concrete. A concrete "jacking" company quoted me $1800 to inject poly-fill foam close to the outer perimeter to LIFT to outer perimeter, and (theoretically) drive the inner perimeter back down over the fulcrum.
I get it that the foam is a good tool for lifting, but does anyone have success stories for fixing the heaving/step, teeter-totter condition that my concrete deck has? I don't want a foam injection process to make the heaving worse.
Thank you.
Without reading any of the replies, I'd be reporting this contractor to whatever agencies he's supposed to be responsible to 'answer to'. He oughta make it right if it didn't even survive one winter.
The detail is logical from an engineering standpoint.
It allows the slab to bear completely on soil to allow for movement rather than being supported on one side by the wall of the pool, while the other side of the slab is subjected to soil movement.
Uniform bearing is always preferred in order to avoid differential settlement as well as expansion and contraction.
To close the loop on this job, I thought I'd share a few final pictures and costs. In the end, I spent nearly $5500, including some hired labor & a couple tools that I can use for other projects moving forward.... Although I never did get this foundation/piers/foam slab support that I had originally focused on. It was the PE report that dissuaded me from doing it-- at least for now-- although I did find a contractor that was much more reasonable, pricewise (about $2.2K)-- and would warrant the work for 3 years. I had a professional concrete cutting service, a concrete scanning service (to pinpoint the copper bonding wires) the PE, about 20 pcs of replacement travertine coping, concrete, mortar, grout, and in the end I chose ChemLink NovaLink SL sealant with a combination of 3-1/2 x 1/2" thick foam backer plus some foam backer rod material to soak-up the variations in the joint.
The "heaving" was mostly masked by removing a few more travertine pieces and creating a slight incline in the replacement pieces and the stone inlay, grout & sealant took care of the rest. For now there are a few locations where it's not perfect due to installation sloppiness, but it is so much better than before, I can easily live with it. Only time will tell if this solution will hold firm and not sink or heave, but it looks much better now.
Still, it's work I never shoulda had needed to have done--- if not for the incompetence & neglect of the pool contractor & his hand-picked concrete sub... It's all I could do to restrain myself from leaving them zero-star Google & Angi reviews, although I did notice that they left each other glowing 5-star reviews... I have to let that go one day.
Thanks to everyone that contributed & offered experience, wisdom & sanity.
To close the loop on this job, I thought I'd share a few final pictures and costs. In the end, I spent nearly $5500, including some hired labor & a couple tools that I can use for other projects moving forward.... Although I never did get this foundation/piers/foam slab support that I had originally focused on. It was the PE report that dissuaded me from doing it-- at least for now-- although I did find a contractor that was much more reasonable, pricewise (about $2.2K)-- and would warrant the work for 3 years. I had a professional concrete cutting service, a concrete scanning service (to pinpoint the copper bonding wires) the PE, about 20 pcs of replacement travertine coping, concrete, mortar, grout, and in the end I chose ChemLink NovaLink SL sealant with a combination of 3-1/2 x 1/2" thick foam backer plus some foam backer rod material to soak-up the variations in the joint.
The "heaving" was mostly masked by removing a few more travertine pieces and creating a slight incline in the replacement pieces and the stone inlay, grout & sealant took care of the rest. For now there are a few locations where it's not perfect due to installation sloppiness, but it is so much better than before, I can easily live with it. Only time will tell if this solution will hold firm and not sink or heave, but it looks much better now.
Still, it's work I never shoulda had needed to have done--- if not for the incompetence & neglect of the pool contractor & his hand-picked concrete sub... It's all I could do to restrain myself from leaving them zero-star Google & Angi reviews, although I did notice that they left each other glowing 5-star reviews... I have to let that go one day.
Thanks to everyone that contributed & offered experience, wisdom & sanity.
It looks good. This is a reasonably priced solution considering everything. I have my fingers crossed this works for you for the long run.
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