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It's outdated because unless you're an igoramus, you know that you can find almost anything you want in any major metropolitan city in the country. Whereas that used to very much NOT be true.
Except continous rich dense urban walkable urban areas and suburbs as well as good transportation.
Only a few cities offer that in any reasonable amount in the U.S. beyond a few select areas in the those cities.
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jek74
Good post. Let me clarify something though, I would never say living anywhere is not worth it. In fact, I loved living in NY, had the time of my life. I also enjoyed my visit to SF and all the time I have spent in southern cal as well. And to be fair, if I lived in SF, there is no doubt I would enjoy living there. Oddly enough, I was very close to moving there for a job many years ago. But when I looked for apartments out there, I couldn't pull the trigger. I just did not want to have 3 roommates again and still pay over 1k a month for rent. One bedroom apts weren't even a possibility. So I just wanted to clarify my tone here, there is no anti-big city or anti NY or SF feelings here.
Having said that, there always seems to be this conversation here as there probably is on every city board forum, that some other city is better, more fun, more exciting, etc. Now opinions are subjective and really quite meaningless as we can't quantify them. I work in finance so quantifying data is very important to me. It takes the subjectivity out of things. That is why I focus on cost of living, something that CAN be quantified. My argument is and always has been, that there is little to no room for a middle class with a high quality of life in both those cities. That does not mean one cannot live there without making such sacrifices as you obviously did with your wife. I made a lot of sacrifices to live in NY. I had to live in the outer boroughs, couldn't have a car, had to have several roommates, live in very small cramped quarters and basically had to remove the concept of owning things out of my life. There was no buying of furniture or property as these things were either too expensive or not worth moving around. Having made these sacrifices, I was able to live there. But my quality of life was seriously impacted. It was very frustrating making a rather substantial income and living like a bum when my other friends from college and even just high school back home in the midwest owned their own homes, cars, furniture and were building up savings for their future. It got depressing after awhile. Living in the moment was fun and I found a lot of people in these cities do just that, they live in the moment. They don't think about tomorrow. They have no savings, lots of debt and they are one pink slip away from self destructing. I just couldn't live like that anymore. I wanted to have a secure future. I was tired of living in the moment. Maybe age does that to you, I don't know.
I have a lot of friends that live out in the Bay area and I ask them all the time. Do you see families there? The answer is almost always no. Mostly because of the cost of living issues. I ask them who their neighbors are, who lives around them. People usually fall into two categories. One, very wealthy people who might be described as middle class for SF but they would be upper class in St. Louis or Kansas City or Denver. The other group is what I would call the left leaning liberal/artist/I don't care what it costs to live here I'm going to live here because this city represents my values. I have nothing against that. But there is a sizable group out there that would live anywhere in that city for any cost because of their cultural belief system. No other place in the US would be liberal enough for them. That's an interesting crowd out there.
So my whole thing has been that living in Houston has everything SF has outside of the weather and the scenery, just less of it. Houston has interesting people, arts, sports, bars, restaurants, shopping, etc. But one can live in Houston for cheap, build up savings for the future, raise their families, afford to travel, live with less debt and who knows, with all the money they saved, maybe move to Cali for retirement. I suspect one of the things that helped you move out there was the fact you were able to save money by living in Houston, even with the 3k sq foot house and the cars and the pool, etc.
I am curious, are you renting that 900 sq ft apartment on Russian Hill or did you buy it? If you are renting, what does that go for these days? I'm also curious what you and your wife do for work. Since you mentioned you just got up and moved to Dallas and then to SF. It's not that easy right now to just change jobs like that. I'm just curious.
My point was really that the adjustments we have made are not "sacrifices". We changed our lifestyle to match our new city and did so enthusiastically. It is no sacrifice to live in a smaller, more manageable place with no maintenance or lawn care. Nor is it a sacrifice to not maintain a car or spend so much on gas because I take public transportation everywhere. My life is is not comparable to my life in Houston. It is different in just about every way, so thinking that "Houston offers the same things, just less of them" is not accurate, in my opinion.
As to your questions, My time in Dallas was around 1998-2000, so it wasn't a direct move to there, then SF. We are currently renting in Russian Hill. I'm hoping to buy something in a few years, probably in Marin or Berkeley. I don't think I could swing it in the City in the kind of neighborhood I want. By then, I'll be ready to settle in a bit, too, and living in the heart of the City won't be as big of a deal anymore. Or, maybe it will. We'll see.
I'd rather not get into specifics about what we pay for rent, but having only been in this apartment for six months,our rent is on par with the averages you are hearing. We are at the low end of the range for our neighborhood for a typical apartment. We have a bit more space than the typical Russian Hill apartment, but ours is a fairly old, but well-kept building.
I am in advertising (creative director and copywriter). My wife teaches in the East Bay. And no it's not that easy to change jobs. I came out here knowing no one. It took me two months of pounding the pavement relentlessly to find something. But it worked out.
My point was really that the adjustments we have made are not "sacrifices". We changed our lifestyle to match our new city and did so enthusiastically. It is no sacrifice to live in a smaller, more manageable place with no maintenance or lawn care. Nor is it a sacrifice to not maintain a car or spend so much on gas because I take public transportation everywhere. My life is is not comparable to my life in Houston. It is different in just about every way, so thinking that "Houston offers the same things, just less of them" is not accurate, in my opinion.
OK, thanks for your response. But let me just zero in on this not because I'm trying to pester you, but I'm genuinely curious. What "specifically" do you have there that is not available in Houston. Again, not counting the weather or the obviously beautiful scenery, but actual things you and your wife can do there that you can't do here. And again, hiking in the hills or boating, etc fall under the scenery category. I'm really curious. There really are only so many things adults can do (legally or otherwise). LOL.
I should also add that sure, while you were able to get rid of some of the baggage you had in Houston (the big house, lawn, cars, etc) to make the comparison seem equal economically, it's not a fair comparison as you could have moved into a smaller place in Houston with no lawn, etc.
Again, I know people get upset when I keep harping on this, but this is exactly what I'm talking about when discussing quality of life. These 220 sq foot apartments are going to go for $1500 a month! Some of you guys have bathrooms bigger then that. Yes, SF is beautiful and the arts and the people and all that. But I would be absolutely miserable living in a closet and still paying $1500 a month. Yeah I know, the weather is great.
It's all about what you are used to.
I met a guy form Hong Kong. He was 27. He is living with his older brother and his parents in a 300 sq. ft. apartment. And they've been living in there for 25 years. I've seen pictures of it. He thought it was ok. I think he said an apartment of that size was about 800-900 Dollars and it was not somewhere in downtown Hong Kong or some expensive district in Hong Kong. I didn't even think it was all that nice. You could compare it to a 600 Dollar/650 sq. ft. apartment in Montrose/Midtown.
But SF is not Hong Kong. You can live in the suburbs or wherever. They ( in Hong Kong ) don't have that option. So I realize it's not quite a good comparison, but I'm just saying that there are many places on this planet where living in small spaces is very common.
Did not read the tread, so I don't know if it's been posted here.
Houston is, by far, not desirable enough. So this will never happen.
Ever heard of Williston, North Dakota? It's a really nice place to live. It's in the middle of no where. Basically no amenities to speak of. And most of the winter the temps are -30. Well, good luck moving there. Because it's more expensive then SF. It's easier to find a cheap place in Pacific Heights then here. The demand for housing is so bad that workers are living in trucks, yes trucks in Walmart parking lots because tiny apartments are going for 3k a month. Oh btw, in case you didn't get the subtext, the prices and availability have nothing to do with desirability, it has to do with jobs. High paying jobs.
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,083 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by jek74
OK, thanks for your response. But let me just zero in on this not because I'm trying to pester you, but I'm genuinely curious. What "specifically" do you have there that is not available in Houston. Again, not counting the weather or the obviously beautiful scenery, but actual things you and your wife can do there that you can't do here. And again, hiking in the hills or boating, etc fall under the scenery category. I'm really curious. There really are only so many things adults can do (legally or otherwise). LOL.
I should also add that sure, while you were able to get rid of some of the baggage you had in Houston (the big house, lawn, cars, etc) to make the comparison seem equal economically, it's not a fair comparison as you could have moved into a smaller place in Houston with no lawn, etc.
Well, I couldn't move to a place in Houston with the same lifestyle of walking out the door of my building and being immediately in the mix of my neighborhood's main commercial streets. I am a few blocks from Chestnut, Union, Polk and Hyde in various directions. They each have cafes, restaurants, small markets with fruit stands, bars, clubs and boutique shops. Am I aware of places like this in Houston? Kind of... But in all of Houston's inner loop, there is about the same degree of this type of activity as I have within a half mile of my apartment. I don't drive or plan to be in it, it truly has become a lifestyle. We don't spend much time in our apartment--not because we don't like it, but because something will catch my eye on the walk home and I will duck in for a glass of wine and call my wife to join me.
On Sundays at 10am, the football games start. There are about 7-8 sports-related bars on a 5-block stretch of Polk near my apartment. They always have their doors and windows open to the street and you can hear cheers up and down the block. It's a lot of fun to just walk the blocks and figure out which one has a vibe you like and wander in for a beer. I go for weeks and never use my car, which affords me many more opportunities to discover small areas of the city or even little alleys that have interesting shops or restaurants.
That's another thing--beer and wine produced in the area is unique and incredible. Yes, i know Houston has a couple of fledgling breweries and i am aware of Texas wine country, but heat is the enemy of these products and even places that offer great selections of California wines can't capture the taste. My wife and I go to Wine Country about once a month and it feels like an amazing vacation every time. Nothing like it anywhere else on the continent, much less in Texas.
You mentioned the industries here for work opportunities. That VC mentality translates into a very creative and entrepreneurial atmosphere, which trickles into all things, not just tech. That has been a boon for my line of work. It also brings the best and brightest to our city, which helps in keeping our economy strong. It is competitive here, but there is a lot of diversity in the opportunity--more than I ever found in Houston. I will admit that the boom in the Bay Area is probably more for upper-end, experienced professionals, more than entry-level positions, which is reflected in the real estate situation and in fact, is the reason for the tiny apartments mentioned in the OP. nobody expects these to be a long term solution. They are starter opportunities for entry-level people to get a foothold in the City. Or, go to Oakland or San Rafael, if you need a bigger place.
Back on the lifestyle of living in SF. Don't discount the impact of that weather and scenery. That's a lifestyle changer. A trip for a hike up Mt. Tam is about 25 minutes from my apartment. I can also walk or bike to my job in the Financial District. I prefer to take the cable car, though, because its fun to chat with people from all over the world who ride it and want to know about San Francisco. I leave my windows open 24/7 with no screens on them. We have no bugs here. None. And the city is always air conditioned, which makes outdoor activities fun. If we want to make a quick picnic and have an amazing backdrop, a 10 minute drive to Land's End provides it. Or, really beautiful beaches are nearby, though Ill grant you that it's about an hour to a warm one, similar to Houston's drive time. The payoff is much richer, though, in beautiful sea cliffs and clean, crashing waves. We can also be in the snow-capped Sierra or the majesty of Yosemite in about the same drive as Houstonians can be in Austin or Lake Charles. That's a lifestyle point as well.
The produce is amazing as well. The freshness of all the food surpasses Houston. Even the tap water wins, as it is spring water and snow melt from a reservoir in Yosemite that runs cold and pristine right out of the tap. It may sound silly to many, but small details like that add up. The air is clean and crisp. The sky is deep, cerulean blue. No Texas white skies in Northern California.
For me, as a writer, however, the biggest difference has been the attitude and the intangibles of that more urban, cafe and bar society. There are so many more opportunities to interact with people here. It's as you would expect in a place where many ride public transportation and there are more public places for people to gather. Add in the varied tourists and visitors from all over the world and you begin to understand the influence real urban life has on an environment like this. It does feed the creative spirit in ways that Houston never did.
I love the quirks, too, like the odd foods and drinks that are a part of SF culture, the crazy politics, the over-the-top street fairs and urban culture. That it has a definable culture is even pretty amazing coming from Houston. Could I get a shot of Fernet with a ginger back in a bar in Houston? A tri-tip sandwich? Some real sourdough and a bowl of Cioppino? Perhaps, but It doesn't matter in Houston. There are things in Houston that are unique to its lifestyle, I know, but they aren't as appealing to me, as I find those things to be more about suburban-style living. Houston seems to try really hard to be counted among big important cities and clamorous for the the things other places have, both culturally and commercially. it comes off as a bit insecure or a least still early in its development. SF is proudly defiant and doesn't care what others think about it. It's an old city by Western standards and was already completely destroyed once, so it has had a chance for a mulligan in its development. I prefer that culture. I know it is off-putting to some and difficult to understand. I also know it may be hard for a numbers guy to quantify. But that, along with the other things mentioned make up the bulk of the reasons I think SF is worth it.
PS-- I still proudly claim my Houston roots and love the place. I enjoy visiting and reconnecting with it. It is certainly not a backwater by any stretch of the imagination, which I remind people every chance I get. It is a fine place to live for millions of people. I am merely stating my personal preference for San Francisco.
Last edited by dalparadise; 11-25-2012 at 11:54 AM..
Well, I couldn't move to a place in Houston with the same lifestyle of walking out the door of my building and being immediately in the mix of my neighborhood's main commercial streets. I am a few blocks from Chestnut, Union, Polk and Hyde in various directions. They each have cafes, restaurants, small markets with fruit stands, bars, clubs and boutique shops. Am I aware of places like this in Houston? Kind of... But in all of Houston's inner loop, there is about the same degree of this type of activity as I have within a half mile of my apartment. I don't drive or plan to be in it, it truly has become a lifestyle. We don't spend much time in our apartment--not because we don't like it, but because something will catch my eye on the walk home and I will duck in for a glass of wine and call my wife to join me.
On Sundays at 10am, the football games start. There are about 7-8 sports-related bars on a 5-block stretch of Polk near my apartment. They always have their doors and windows open to the street and you can hear cheers up and down the block. It's a lot of fun to just walk the blocks and figure out which one has a vibe you like and wander in for a beer. I go for weeks and never use my car, which affords me many more opportunities to discover small areas of the city or even little alleys that have interesting shops or restaurants.
That's another thing--beer and wine produced in the area is unique and incredible. Yes, i know Houston has a couple of fledgling breweries and i am aware of Texas wine country, but heat is the enemy of these products and even places that offer great selections of California wines can't capture the taste. My wife and I go to Wine Country about once a month and it feels like an amazing vacation every time. Nothing like it anywhere else on the continent, much less in Texas.
You mentioned the industries here for work opportunities. That VC mentality translates into a very creative and entrepreneurial atmosphere, which trickles into all things, not just tech. That has been a boon for my line of work. It also brings the best and brightest to our city, which helps in keeping our economy strong. It is competitive here, but there is a lot of diversity in the opportunity--more than I ever found in Houston. I will admit that the boom in the Bay Area is probably more for upper-end, experienced professionals, more than entry-level positions, which is reflected in the real estate situation and in fact, is the reason for the tiny apartments mentioned in the OP. nobody expects these to be a long term solution. They are starter opportunities for entry-level people to get a foothold in the City. Or, go to Oakland or San Rafael, if you need a bigger place.
Back on the lifestyle of living in SF. Don't discount the impact of that weather and scenery. That's a lifestyle changer. A trip for a hike up Mt. Tam is about 25 minutes from my apartment. I can also walk or bike to my job in the Financial District. I prefer to take the cable car, though, because its fun to chat with people from all over the world who ride it and want to know about San Francisco. I leave my windows open 24/7 with no screens on them. We have no bugs here. None. And the city is always air conditioned, which makes outdoor activities fun. If we want to make a quick picnic and have an amazing backdrop, a 10 minute drive to Land's End provides it. Or, really beautiful beaches are nearby, though Ill grant you that it's about an hour to a warm one, similar to Houston's drive time. The payoff is much richer, though, in beautiful sea cliffs and clean, crashing waves. We can also be in the snow-capped Sierra or the majesty of Yosemite in about the same drive as Houstonians can be in Austin or Lake Charles. That's a lifestyle point as well.
The produce is amazing as well. The freshness of all the food surpasses Houston. Even the tap water wins, as it is spring water and snow melt from a reservoir in Yosemite that runs cold and pristine right out of the tap. It may sound silly to many, but small details like that add up. The air is clean and crisp. The sky is deep, cerulean blue. No Texas white skies in Northern California.
For me, as a writer, however, the biggest difference has been the attitude and the intangibles of that more urban, cafe and bar society. There are so many more opportunities to interact with people here. It's as you would expect in a place where many ride public transportation and there are more public places for people to gather. Add in the varied tourists and visitors from all over the world and you begin to understand the influence real urban life has on an environment like this. It does feed the creative spirit in ways that Houston never did.
I love the quirks, too, like the odd foods and drinks that are a part of SF culture, the crazy politics, the over-the-top street fairs and urban culture. That it has a definable culture is even pretty amazing coming from Houston. Could I get a shot of Fernet with a ginger back in a bar in Houston? A tri-tip sandwich? Some real sourdough and a bowl of Cioppino? Perhaps, but It doesn't matter in Houston. There are things in Houston that are unique to its lifestyle, I know, but they aren't as appealing to me, as I find those things to be more about suburban-style living. Houston seems to try really hard to be counted among big important cities and clamorous for the the things other places have, both culturally and commercially. it comes off as a bit insecure or a least still early in its development. SF is proudly defiant and doesn't care what others think about it. It's an old city by Western standards and was already completely destroyed once, so it has had a chance for a mulligan in its development. I prefer that culture. I know it is off-putting to some and difficult to understand. I also know it may be hard for a numbers guy to quantify. But that, along with the other things mentioned make up the bulk of the reasons I think SF is worth it.
PS-- I still proudly claim my Houston roots and love the place. I enjoy visiting and reconnecting with it. It is certainly not a backwater by any stretch of the imagination, which I remind people every chance I get. It is a fine place to live for millions of people. I am merely stating my personal preference for San Francisco.
Thanks again for the detailed response. I honestly don't disagree with much of what you said. I've been to SF and walked almost the entire city. I know a lot of people that lived in NY who moved out there because the city was similar in culture but warmer and more compact. Of course coming from NY, SF almost seems cheap. So that is an easy trade.
However, I'm still going to have to disagree here on the things to do. I 100% agree that SF makes doing those things you listed easier. Look, I live in Chicago in a pretty hip and active neighborhood. I can walk out my door and do everything you listed. It's fun and nice for awhile and believe me, I loved it. But like everything in life, it runs its course. I also lived in NY and had the same situation. I'm sure Boston and Seattle are similar. But seriously, you can do all that stuff in Houston. Yes, you have to drive a little. But most people have busy lives and they don't have all this free time to randomly wander the streets.
My whole argument was never based on the idea that SF didn't offer more, I just don't think there is value in more.
I went on Craigs list and this was the only place I could find that was reasonable on Russian Hill.
A one bedroom 750 sq foot apt for 3k a month. It does look nice and is in better shape then many I looked at, but this is insane in my opinion. Granted if you are making 150k a year, I would gobble this apt up in a heart beat. But my whole argument was always based on a middle class lifestyle.
Sure, you can live in Oakland or the East Bay. And BART is pretty extensive and I believe one of the better things about SF. However, living in the East Bay and Oakland is not SF. Yes they are very close. But the avg person will spend very little time talking that trip on a regular basis. I've done it and it's kind of a drag. It kind of defeats the whole point of living in SF.
I suspect and I don't meaning anything negative by this, but your politics probably swing to the left. A majority of the people I have met that speak like you and yearn to move to SF specifically from a red state or from the south usually are tired of the conservative culture around them even though they will NEVER admit it. They are liberal and the feel more comfortable being around more liberal people. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but it seems like a majority that is the case which is fine. I'm sure there are many people moving to TX from CA for the exact same reasons.
Honestly I would rather not pay 3k a month in rent, live cheaper in Houston and with the money I saved, take trips to SF, Tahoe, San Diego, NY and Europe. Since most of our lives are spent working, I rather work somewhere where my money will go the furthest and take the savings and do something better with it rather then blowing it in cafes and wine bars and rent.
One other thing, and don't take this the wrong way, but I detect a sense of insecurity in your life. I'm not sure why a married couple with no kids is living in a large 3k sq foot home with expensive cars in the driveway, etc. I know in TX everyone does things bigger, but that usually is a result of some insecurity imbedded in your personality. I'm sure you are not the only one. But there really was no reason to waste so much money on that stuff if you were not going to have a family. I would have just gotten a small condo in the loop where you can be around the more cultural stuff and not have to drive as far as live a more minimalist lifestyle like you are now.
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,138,083 times
Reputation: 3145
Not taking it the wrong way at all. Your opinion and observations are whatever you want them to be.i said at the outset that I understand people's values aren't all alike.
For the record, I lived in Montrose, The Heights and West End for about 15 years. My wife and I owned a 1700 square foot townhouse near River Oaks as our first place when we got married. But, as I said, she is a teacher and after a couple of years of her driving long distances to her work, I decided to move to the suburbs and do the commuting myself, for safety reasons of her being on the road often late at night (her teaching involves after-school activities). In the suburbs, we found we were compensating for some of the lifestyle things we were missing with things. And, why not take advantage of the space and spread-out nature of Houston?
One more thing-- I stayed in the East Bay for my first six months here. Riding BART to get into the City (about 30 minutes) was no big deal. It's a great compromise for those who don't want to pay SF rates.
As for "free time to wander the streets" that is exactly the point I was making. I don't have to take my free time to wander the streets. It's a different lifestyle. I pass all of this stuff on my WALK home from work or my cable car ride. It's there when I walk outside my apartment. I don't have to drive 30 minutes to get to a manufactured neighborhood. There are real ones in every direction, each with a different vibe. I know you get this, being in Chicago. It's not the same in Houston. I am a 20+ year veteran and I have been in every corner of that city.
Still, I do love it. It is different though and there's nothing wrong with that.
Oh, and the apartment you listed is very nice. That is about three blocks from mine. I pay quite a bit less, though it would still seem insane to many, I bet.
Thanks for the conversation. I do respect your opinions and share your enthusiasm for what I consider my hometown.
Not taking it the wrong way at all. Your opinion and observations are whatever you want them to be.i said at a great compromise for those who don't want to pay SF rates.
As for "free time to wander the streets" that is exactly the point I was making. I don't have to take my free time to wander the streets. It's a different lifestyle. I pass all of this stuff on my WALK home from work or my cable car ride. It's there when I walk outside my apartment. I don't have to drive 30 minutes to get to a manufactured neighborhood. There are real ones in every direction, each with a different vibe. I know you get this, being in Chicago. It's not the same in Houston. I am a 20+ year veteran and I have been in every corner of that city.
.
This post.
Sadly, he just won't get it.
He needs to recognize that everyone doesn't care about a big house and nice car.
Oh no, I get it. Where do you live again? Of the two of us, I think I'm the only one living in one of your exciting cities. LOL. Ironic isn't it?
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