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I think this thread somewhat IS about race. OP said something like, time for ' White flight'
I agree with you. It is very evident, especially if one follows the thread from the begining. The issue of race was the original underlying factor; then individual races started being singled out. That is why I decided to draw attention to the correct definition of the term 'white flight' that was being thrown around. Unfortunately, alot of people cannot connect a biased attitude taward race, as racism.
White flight is a bit of a racist term. It is more referring to middle class on up. It does not help that the poor population is rapidly growing across the country.
The white flight has a little bit of truth, because I have personally heard it from people saying
Just last month a guy from my work was telling me "The neighborhood is getting bad, there's been a lot more crime in our neighborhood, we are thinking about moving, everyday you see more black people in Walmart"
Ok, I understand part the about crime,
but what does seeing a lot of black people in Walmart have to do with anything?
I always find that funny because I'm black-hispanic, but I'm a little light skinned (same color than Alex Rodriguez)
But my brother is much darker, he always reminded me of Chris Webber, but a little lighter than him.
If my brother moves to my neighborhood, I can just see myself thinking "Uhhh s..., my brother is moving to my neighborhood, the neighborhood is going downhill now" lol
It is such a subjective attitude, I must agree with you. It is so stereotypical. Kudos to you, for playing it light and adding the sarcasm to your last statement. You hit the nail on the head...it is that ridiculous.
I also find it so amusing to see such people still stuck in the past. All I have to say, is that it is a good thing such attitudes are becoming a minority, as the smarter ones accept and embrace the imminent change.
I suspect the answer is simple: most people would rather live around other people that are similar to themselves. It's not just white people that do this either. Self-segregation is more the norm than the exception.
I agree ( déjà vu? ).
I'm sure you know that a major reason why the white flight phenonemon concerns so many folks (hence so often studied across multi-disciplinary fields) is due to its far reaching impact in driving (sub)urban decay. So long as white folks ( not a racist term, I hope ) continue to dominate and be the main drivers of the social and economic engines in our society, then "white flight"- not "yellow flight" not "brown flight" not "black flight" not, well, you get the idea - will continue to be used to describe this phenomenon of people fleeing poverty and/or race, crime, Honey Bo Boos, etc., and the subsequent socio-economic consequence of that action the the remaining area.
I agree that due to it long standing exposure to diversity Houston probably has a higher threshold of tolerance than the Chicago suburb studied, and some suburbs may fare better than others, but only time will tell...
It is such a subjective attitude, I must agree with you. It is so stereotypical. Kudos to you, for playing it light and adding the sarcasm to your last statement. You hit the nail on the head...it is that ridiculous.
I also find it so amusing to see such people still stuck in the past. All I have to say, is that it is a good thing such attitudes are becoming a minority, as the smarter ones accept and embrace the imminent change.
LOL. You sound like Louis Farrakhan. Imminent change? The only change I see is the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer. And you can thank our government for that. I'm not sure what change you are referring to. After all, the title of this thread, "more poor people moving to the suburbs" is about how the poor population is getting larger and the cities can't contain them. The poor will continue to get pushed out further and further and further from the city. And yes, if it will make you happy, the poor whites, poor blacks and poor hispanics will likely be herded together like cattle on cheap land far away. You will have your diversity, but you will hate your quality of life. Meanwhile, the rich will have the city all to themselves. You know how the saying goes, be careful what you wish for.
White flight is a bit of a racist term. It is more referring to middle class on up. It does not help that the poor population is rapidly growing across the country.
What on God's green earth are you talking about? What are exactly are you standing up to? The fact that some people leave the city for the suburbs? As the title of this thread suggests? Who is arguing with you? No one on this thread is denying racism exists. Who are you fighting? You are making this up as you go. I think you are fighting with yourself. What injustice is being done here? Are you saying people do NOT have a right to choose where they want to live? So Mr. Stalin, where can I live? Do I have to get your permission? Can I live in Montrose? Can I live in Midtown or is that too flashy? What about Sugarland, or do I have to be an Indian to live there? What about the Woodlands, or do I have to be a conservative? Where will you give me permission to live and who do I have to file my paperwork with? What exactly do you want? The title of this thread is:more poor people are moving to the suburbs. Of course they are, economics!!!!!! It's cheaper. It's the same reason I moved to Williamsburg, Brooklyn instead of the Village in Manhattan. I couldn't afford to live in the village. There was was no racism involved. I just couldn't write the check. So I lived in a Hasidic community. A deeply religious hasidic community.
I just am baffled by what you are arguing about. So poor people, should they move back into the city? Where do you want them to live? What would make you happy? Where do you want white people to live? Or should we just get rid of those evil pesky whites, after all what they did the native americans when they arrived in this country. Payback is a bich right. Maybe we should force River Oaks to build section 8 housing so we can "diversify" that green leafy tony neighborhood and give it a few rough edges. I honestly read your posts and can't for the life of me figure out what your gripe is. This thread wasn't even about race until you brought it up, it was about poor people. Why don't any poor people live in Beverly Hills? Or Westchester, NY? Or Greenwhich, CT? Racism? Conspiracy? Did we really land on the moon in 1969 and beat the Russians or was it the CA desert?
I think you are not sure of what you are doing here: Let's keep things straight! Let's go back to the genesis of this: I responded to PedroMartinez' thread and validated his observation regarding the 'white flight' I had described in a scenario in a prior post. Then I went on to describe 'white flight' today is also driven by disproportionate ratios in neighborhoods [incidentally other posts have validated that in some form or fashion].
Then you come along and use the ''...psychosis in my head..." line. Outrightly and directly verbally abusing me [besides, the phrase does not make any sense at all, as it would imply there could also be psychosis in my leg, in my hand, in my belly, in my fingers etc.... 'psychosis' is ALREADY a head/mental disorder...next time if you want to initiate the verbal abuse with anyone else, just use "psychosis". Don't add the '..in your head...' part. Where else does psychosis occur?]. That is just an aside...back to the main topic.
Anyway, I give you the benefit of the doubt, and I choose to ignore it...initially. Because all good debate is based on "tearing" down the opponents premise, reasoning, logic, assumptions and conclusions, that are not based on fact, or that can be proven as such; and NOT verbally abusing and attacking the individual. I have never verbally abused you here [as you claim], all I have done is "rip out the rug from under your feet", and invalidate the foundation of your logic and premise and called out flawed assumptions.
Next, you come up with some outlier data to try and prove your point that, "...it is too expensive to move out". You come up with a scenario for a $0.5 Million house and do some arithmetic on commission [5-7%] and try and shoe-horn your logic and argument. And I actually ignore what you claimed were facts...because it is outlier data! In reality, when discussing issues like this, you need look at the broader segment of society. What I mean by that is this: conduct your research and come back and tell us on this thread, just how many people [% ratio] in the US own a house of $0.5 Million and more, [because you claim at that price point, the commission and associated expenses to move out from neighborhoods experiencing an influx of various cultures, would be too high, hence 'white flight' will not exist]? Calculate that percentage, and if it is even up to 15% of Americans, I will honestly give your logic and reasoning "mic" time here. But if the ratio is so disproportionate, say even 5-8% [if even that], I will not use it to describe the rest of America in this specific discussion point! Come on now??? In the same manner, if I were say, a refugee immigrant [headed to the US] in some distant land, I would not use a US millionaire's life style to try and understand the reality of what living in the US might entail...just does not make sense to me. In the same way, don't use a $0.5 million dollar home to analyze the issue. Besides, in this issue you have to factor in the deeper, "I WANT to leave because of the influx of the "poor" [immigrant], BUT I can't", attitude.
The normal distribution of home owners in the US will have that price point on the far right tail of your curve. To debate your position, the data/facts need to focus on the range of home values 2-sigma [67%] or so, on both sides of the mean of your normal distribution. And I highly doubt your $0.4-0.5 Million homes will fall in there. Hence, I conveniently ignored it, as you correctly said. Because if you use the price point of homes for Mainstreet America, you will find that your claim, "that it is too expensive to move out, because of the influx of other cultures to the neighborhood", is not a valid statement. Anyway, as I have said, immigrants/minorities are NOT applauding 'white flight', NOR are we forcing you to stay, it is your choice; our character is nobler than that. All we are questioning is, "Hey, what is wrong with you guys...learn to live together already?!" We are NOT looking to return any "favor" as you also suggest, we don't care about that honestly... life itself metes out justice; and one day it catches up. You have heard the saying, "the evil that men do lives after[with] them..."
Then you go on and begin to suggest I have issues, health problems, gripes, etc. [I am not going to go into that any further]. But suffice it to say, that if anyone is digressing from the original topic, it is you. So don't try and turn this whole thing around and say I digressed. Keep it straight, simple and truthful.
White flight is a bit of a racist term. It is more referring to middle class on up. It does not help that the poor population is rapidly growing across the country.
Both are just terms referring socio ethno-demographics. Like "reverse white flight" in this thread. And "reverse black flight" when referring to blacks moving back South.
Nothing racist about. No different than the Dust Bowl. But its obvious, some people have a hard time accepting that a massive shift of any kind associated with ethnicity, could be constructed as racism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo
The white flight has a little bit of truth, because I have personally heard it from people saying
Just last month a guy from my work was telling me "The neighborhood is getting bad, there's been a lot more crime in our neighborhood, we are thinking about moving, everyday you see more black people in Walmart"
Ok, I understand part the about crime,
but what does seeing a lot of black people in Walmart have to do with anything?
I always find that funny because I'm black-hispanic, but I'm a little light skinned (same color than Alex Rodriguez)
But my brother is much darker, he always reminded me of Chris Webber, but a little lighter than him.
If my brother moves to my neighborhood, I can just see myself thinking "Uhhh s..., my brother is moving to my neighborhood, the neighborhood is going downhill now" lol
When I hear that, along with "We're seeing more and more Mexican kids playing outside, and they dont speak English".
Right or wrong, we know psychologically people will associate anything to what they perceive as the source. If break ins are on the rise in a neighborhood, and more than half of the suspects are minorities, people will come to a conclusion.
Str8Talk I have tried repeatedly to debate you in a civilized fashion while trying to ignore your accusations I must be some racist or my "kind" doesn't understand. You use this language repeatedly and then say you are not attacking me. That's a nice strategy. I have brought mostly facts to this thread which you continue to ignore. I used the 500k home because THAT is the AVG price of homes in the LOOP. We are not talking about Akron, OH, this thread is about Houston. If it wasn't about Houston the moderators would have moved it. So let's try this ONE MORE TIME. Poor people are moving out of the "city" to the "suburbs". The avg home in the city of Houston actually IS very expensive. That's been discussed ad nausem on this board for awhile now. So because of that, poor people can no longer afford to live in the city. Not poor black or poor latino, but poor everyone. So where do they go? The suburbs. Why? Because Houston has very affordable suburbs. Economics!!!! Then you and few others come in and say, well, it's not really about economics, it's about race. No, it's about economics. The inner loop actually IS VERY expensive. It's expensive to rent (although cheaper then NY, LA, CHicago) and it's more expensive to buy. So poor people make an economic choice. To MOVE. That is what they do. Then out of no where we get these terms white flight, racism, segregation, all these other side topics thrown in.
The fact of the matter is, homes in the loop are NOT 150k. They ARE 150k in the burbs. Even in the nice burbs like the Woodlands or Sugarland you can find older smaller homes for 100k to 150k. THAT is why people are leaving the city. Not to escape black people. Or Latino's other OTHERS. I then made an argument as to why people in a "particular" burb, whose complexion was changing "color" would not necessarily move even if they wanted to. The fact of the matter is, moving is not cheap. Even if your home is worth 100k. It's all relative. If I'm living in a home that cheap, chances are, money is not plentiful in my household. So if paying a few thousand to move is too much. So in order to "help" you with "your" argument, I took your bait and played along and said OK, let's say someone CAN afford to move AND they hate black people. Let's go with that. Talk about an outlier, that's probably 2% of the population. But let's go with that 2%. So I used an example of a 500k home. Why? Because I had to pick a sample of someone who COULD afford to move. So for a guy with a 500k home and he HATES black people the question is, does he HATE them so much that he would uproot his kids and family from their schools AND cough out 35k to a realtor to sell his house and pay another 10k in closing costs in a new home FURTHER away from the OTHERS. When he must entertain the idea that those OTHERS might move into THAT neighborhood. I then asked you at what point does he stop running? It makes absolutely no economic sense. You have to suspend all reality to follow this logic. But even at that, I acknowledged that you know, this world is big enough that statistically speaking, that guy probably DOES exist. I gave you that. But my goodness, to suggest that is even a large part of the Houston population is just bonkers. I'm guessing he is part of a group that is 5% or less. I even went further to state that that guy is an a-hole. And any community that had that "type" of guy would benefit from him moving out. I actually supported your cause there.
I have continued to ask you for data showing that this is an epidemic in Houston. Not the 1960's in the deep south. But right here right now in Houston, TX. I continue to maintain that a large majority of the people that live here are diverse and co-integrate well with all races. I have seen this first hand since moving down here. I encountered far more racism in NY and Chicago then I have here. And I continue to maintain until proven otherwise by actual data, not theory, that a majority of people make their important life decisions based on economic need and desire, not on colored people moving into their neighborhood.
At some point I would really appreciate you to put your "theory" away and bring out your "facts". Not facts from the midwest or the deep south in 1960's but facts that show that THIS city, the city of Houston today in the year 2013 has a large population of people that are RUNNING from "OTHERS" by quickly moving out of their home, of their neighborhood and their schools to ESCAPE and SURVIVE. If you or ANYONE on this board provides that data, I will absolutely change my mind. As the old saying goes" when the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir". John Maynard Keynes
And one last point and then let's please drop these attacks, I used the word psychosis to describe you because there are many people, and you may or may not be one of them, that have a tendency to see racism EVERYWHERE. And I mean EVERYWHERE. As the saying goes, you hear dog whistles. Chris Matthews likes to repeat. A dog whistle is a code word that sounds like a normal every day word but when spoken by a white man it's code for racist. For example if a white man describes a person as "angry". Mathews would posit that using the word angry to describe a black man is code for racist because angry is a stereotypical description of a black man. You sounded like someone who sees racists everywhere, in your sleep, in your car, at the store, at the bank. Yes, there are racists in our society. But a majority are not. And when you start throwing that word out, you kill all potential for a meaningful and intelligent debate. So psychosis was used to describe the fact that you continued to harp on race when the thread was about the economic reasons why poor people are moving to the suburbs. OK, enough of that.
If you care to post some actual FACTS and DATA I give you my word, and my word is my bond, that I will acknowledge that I overlooked some important aspect of this argument. But there have to be FACTS. Not assumptions about how you personally know how people think or feel and how you can get inside their head and read their thoughts and motivations, provide real hard data. This goes for anyone not just you.
And just so we are clear where I stand, I admit there ARE racists in Houston. There are racists in San Francisco as well. And yes, there are a FEW people that probably would pack their bags overnight and move if they saw 3 black people shopping in their local grocery store. I have stated that. I am saying this is not the majority of reason why people move. I'm saying most people move for economic reasons. For example in Houston they say, or at least everyone on this board says, move close to where you work. Why? Traffic. I believe that. That makes sense to me and data supports that notion. People also move where they find value. For example, if it cost 800k to buy a small 1200 sq foot house in Montrose and it cost 250k to buy a 3k sq foot home in the Woodlands and this family has 2 kids, then it's reasonable to expect that many people will choose to live in the Woodlands vs Montrose if they are OK with the commute. And again, FACTS support that argument.
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You hit the nail on the head...it is that ridiculous.
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