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sponger: You really do need to reconsider your assumptions about illegal immigrants. They are not all impoverished and "starving."
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Yes, if I were in the position of some illegal immigrants, I would likely make the same choices as them. Would let your children starve or raise them in poverty rather than cross the border without papers?
You'll note that I said "some" not "all." I was trying to make a statement about natural law using an extreme example, rather than a directed comment about illegal aliens. No, I do not believe they are all impoverished and starving. I believe that they have a harder time finding gainful employment in their home countries. I believe we have a need and use for industrious workers. Therefore we should reform our immigration laws to allow greater legal immigration and to eliminate illegal aliens by making them legal residents.
I could just as easily have posted "If you are driving alone on a country road with clear visibility in all directions, and the posted speed limit is 3 mph, would you drive faster than the law allows and also petetion the county to raise the speed limit on that road?"
That's actually a better example, because it cites a poorly-created legislation (like our current immigration system), and entails action against it. Yes, immigrants COULD stay in their home countries. Women COULD have continued to not be allowed to vote. Prohibition COULD have continued. And you COULD continue to drive at 3 mph. Or you can change things for the better.
Explain how encouraging an enormous influx of people into the US many of whom have the goal of overwhelming our populace in numbers can be "better."
Americans in general are at least as industrious as any nation. We don't need more people. We need to do away with the codes, rules, regulations, and legislation that encourages poor business decisions and stifles creativity.
A pie sliced into more pieces means smaller pieces for all, and it can get to the point that the size of pieces is so small as to be useless.
The future is rather bleak. As we surpassed the 300 million mark this year shows. Families of illegal aliens have 4 to 5 more children than Americans.
When you say you feel sorry for the illegals because they cannot find employment, are starving, or whatever, I lose sympathy when these starving people continue to bring children into this world that they cannot afford to care for. What is the point of having all these children? To overwhelm the non-hispanic population is absolutely ridiculous - because what kind of nation would we be? We would be overpopulated with many of our resources stretched beyond capacity. We will descend into third world status.
Then Americans would probably start seeking peace on some other part of the earth, Canada probably would be most peoples first choice. More wealthy could afford to go overseas to New Zealand maybe.
Save your "Ah-Ha's". The world is not as black-and-white as you or our president seem to think it is.
Sure. I believe that lex naturalis exists and that it can be used to justify criticism or violation of an unjust and immoral legal situation. There are numerous historical examples that support my arguments. Prohibition, slavery, and WWII war crimes trials are some of the most well-known.
I believe that prohibition was stupid even if legally implemented, slavery was wrong even if legal, and that war criminals should be prosecuted even if they followed the letter of the law. So yes, I am in that flock of birds. Do you disagree and believe that there is no such thing as natural law?
As for immigrating to another country. Well, there seems to be no contention about legal immigration, so let's stick with illegal. In that, it seems intent is important.
If I were to violate the ROC's immigration laws with the intent of remaining unemployed and a burden on the state, then I would be in opposition to both written and natural law. Likewise, if I circumvented a reasonable existing immigration process, "cutting in line", or otherwise causing harm to others through my actions, again, I would be in the wrong by letter and by nature.
However, If I wanted to move there to enjoy the climate and be a productive member of society, yet I was barred by unfair laws from my reasonable actions, I would only be in opposition to the written law were I to immigrate illegally.
The crux of the problem is the definition of reasonable and rightly the source of debate.
Yes, if I were in the position of some illegal immigrants, I would likely make the same choices as them. Would let your children starve or raise them in poverty rather than cross the border without papers?
You only think that because you have never had to deal with them, nor have you bothered to educate yourself on what you are talking about. Visit USCIS Home Page for more information and see for yourself.
Why would I want that?
I do not want that. I do not believe it will happen if we reform the immigration system and offer illegal residents the chance to legalize after paying back-taxes, fees, and passing a background check.
Are you even aware of the immigration laws pre-1965? A return to them would allow the equivilant of 0.6% of the US population to immigrate to the United States every year, excluding IR's of US Citizens. (We can also assume this would exclude the smaller numbers of L-1's and H1's and other specialty visas)
That's 1,800,000 immigrants, compared to today's 55,000 through the diversity lottery system and 750,000 through extended family connections.
That's nearly 1 million extra immigrants per year! Even I wouldn't suggest such extreme numbers. I was thinking more along the lines of 500,000 legal immigrants (with proof of gainful employment) per year, with an option to increase the cap in following years as needed.
When you say you feel sorry for the illegals because they cannot find employment, are starving, or whatever, I lose sympathy when these starving people continue to bring children into this world that they cannot afford to care for. What is the point of having all these children? To overwhelm the non-hispanic population is absolutely ridiculous - because what kind of nation would we be? We would be overpopulated with many of our resources stretched beyond capacity. We will descend into third world status.
Do you assume all illegals are Hispanic? Which Hispanics--the stereotypical dark-skinned Mexican?
There is no end to the lies pro illegal criminal alien extremists will tell. They call themselves Americans, yet they hate America and Americans and continue to advocate for the invasion and destruction of America through illegal immigration. They will try to confuse people by bringing up things that have absolutely nothing to with illegal immigration and its devastating affect on our limited resources, jobs and education. They blatantly ignore the suffering of displaced American workers, murdered victims and destroyed environment and fight for illegal alien criminals who trespass on US soil.
Do you assume all illegals are Hispanic? Which Hispanics--the stereotypical dark-skinned Mexican?
There may be quite a few Middle Eastern illegals, possibly with terrorist intentions, crashing the gates as well, but surely you won't deny that for all practical purposes in discussion that those coming from south of the border are by far the greatest numbers. Are we to somehow distinguish in online forum discussions from which part of "south of the border" these illegals emigrate?
This discussion no longer pertains to the original post, but it's interesting.
There is no end to the lies pro illegal criminal alien extremists will tell. They call themselves Americans, yet they hate America and Americans and continue to advocate for the invasion and destruction of America through illegal immigration. They will try to confuse people by bringing up things that have absolutely nothing to with illegal immigration and its devastating affect on our limited resources, jobs and education. They blatantly ignore the suffering of displaced American workers, murdered victims and destroyed environment and fight for illegal alien criminals who trespass on US soil.
Don't even use the 'unpatriotic' tactic to squash dissent. It will backfire.
I can't go anywhere, I'm Native American. I'll stay behind and fight
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