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The problem is that none of you have any visibility as to how it is impossible for a normal person to get a visa to legally immigrate to the United States, due to our current system.
Who gave everyone who wants to live in the US the right to do so? If there is no legal way for you to immigrate to the US then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be here. Let's say I would like to live in Switzerland. Their country is very beautiful, there is less crime, etc. If there is no legal way for me to emigrate to Switzerland, I am not going to enter Switzerland illegally then demand that I be allowed to stay because there is no legal way for me to become a Swiss citizen. And if I am not willing to respect the most basic of their laws, the right to decide who does and does not enter their country, why should they want me as a citizen anyhow?
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If you want to be rich, you can work hard and generate wealth rather than robbing a bank. But imagine if there was a law that only relatives of rich people who file the proper documents and wait 10 years could make more than 5 dollars a day. What would you do then?
sponger: I have plent of visibility, and do think that the immigration system needs to increase visas for those with lack of funds, and decrease visas for others. But it is incorrect to say that only rich people get to come to the U.S. Many, many people of limited funds do gain entry. Yes, the wait is many years. But, again, this has nothing to do with illegal immigration. You seem to assume that it is the responsibility of the U.S. and American citizens to let in as many people as want to come here, but that's preposterous. In addition, if, for example, Mexican citizens want economic equity in their country, then they need to work towards that end. It is not acceptable for them to enter this country illegally, cause huge disruptions in the lives of Americans, and then cry "foul" when Americans have had enough. Why should Mexicans or others from South America be given preference over people from other parts of the world, merely because of their proximity to the U.S.? ESPECIALLY when they have shown such disrespect for our country and our laws? What makes you think that it is the responsbility of American citizens to provide what the Mexican government should provide? Seriously.
Better hope everyone keeps up the badgering of politicians . This Bush plan
to fire illegal employees is just a plan to fool people into thinking that
the economy is suffering because of the firings. Big business and the news
are going to make a big deal of it to try and get the public support for
amnesty.
The problem is that none of you have any visibility as to how it is impossible for a normal person to get a visa to legally immigrate to the United States, due to our current system.
If you want to be rich, you can work hard and generate wealth rather than robbing a bank. But imagine if there was a law that only relatives of rich people who file the proper documents and wait 10 years could make more than 5 dollars a day. What would you do then?
There's not much of a difference between illegal aliens and bank robbers. They're both criminals plying their trade in their own way. I would add though, how difficult it is to get a visa is totally irrelevant. No one has a right to come here. In fact it should be harder, much harder to immigrate to the US. Illegal aliens feel they have an entitlement to come here and pick and choose which laws they will obey. We should militarize our border, shut down all immigration for at least a generation or two, all while sending the national guard door to door seizing illegal aliens, their anchor babies, and their assets.
Hawkeye88, Junkman, and MovingForward, you are all falling back on rhetoric and not addressing the real economic and social issues facing the country. You keep repeating how you feel about having illegals around and trading analogies, but that does nothing to solve the problem.
1. They violated the system. Like robbing a bank. The system is broken and lends itself to violations. Like prohibition.
2. They undercut US workers. They are a burden on social services. Because they have no documentation and therefore can't demand full pay/benefits and don't pay taxes.
3. They are changing the culture and demographics. Culture is dynamic, demographics are dynamic. They have alway changed, they will not stop or go back to what they were just because you wish it so. Even if you manage to deport a small fraction of the US population.
It seems that the difference between us is that I don't like having illegal aliens, and you just plain don't like illegal aliens. That is why allegations of bias are constantly tossed around. You can't deflect them by saying you'd hate illegal European immigrants just as much if we shared a border with Serbia.
Wanting to preserve the US environment is a valid point. Wanting to protect resources because "we were here first" is a valid--if selfish--point. I disagree with them to a certain extent, but they make sense. Pointing to the effects of an ill-written law and saying that this means the people and not the law are bad, is not a valid point. So let's talk about immigration law.
I gather from your arguments that you think the current system of immigration is just fine and dandy, and illegal aliens are bad people who broke a good system, but do you even understand the system you support?
You think it's fine to keep immigration rates at 0.5% of the US population, and to have those immigrants be allowed to immigrate mainly through virtue of their family ties (along with a handful of transferred international corp. employees and high-tech workers) regardless of skill, motivation, or disposition? You really think that we currently have a viable model?
sponger: It's not that I don't like illegal aliens. And I certainly don't "hate" anyone. I have nothing personally against individuals: that is your interpretation of motivation behind work against illegal immigration, and does not reflect my motivations at all. Therefore, yes, I *can* say that I would feel the same regardless of whether the illegal immigration were coming from Mexico or Serbia.
I still fail to see how "the system is broken," other than the fact that it is not enforced. Any system "lends itself to violations," broken or not.
They undercut U.S. workers because employers are able to pay them lower wages and get away with it. The solution, according to you, would be to legalize them. Why not eliminate the access to employment, forcing them thereby to return to their own countries and work on the problems there? Why should the U.S. be forced to absorb millions of additional people? It makes no sense, socially or environmentally.
Yes, culture is dynamic and changes--but there is a difference between gradual, organic change and forceable change. VERY bad for the environment.
What's wrong with 0.5% of the U.S. population immigration rate? How many people do you want immigrating to this country, and why?
Hawkeye88, Junkman, and MovingForward, you are all falling back on rhetoric and not addressing the real economic and social issues facing the country. You keep repeating how you feel about having illegals around and trading analogies, but that does nothing to solve the problem.
The real problem is that the illegal aliens are here in the first place. The way to address the real economic and social issues facing the country today is to get rid of the problem. Get rid of the illegal aliens and most of the economic and social issues facing the country disappear. In other words, many parts of the nation are turning into cesspools for no other reason than the huge numbers of illegal aliens that have infested the region.
You see, the very problem itself is the fact that the illegal aliens are here in the first place. The answer is to get rid of them, not cater to them and find a way to legalize and reward them for being economic terrorists.
The problem is that none of you have any visibility as to how it is impossible for a normal person to get a visa to legally immigrate to the United States, due to our current system.
If you want to be rich, you can work hard and generate wealth rather than robbing a bank. But imagine if there was a law that only relatives of rich people who file the proper documents and wait 10 years could make more than 5 dollars a day. What would you do then?
It is almost impossible for a "normal" person to get a visa, so we give them a free pass to break laws? Ok, it is almost impossible for a "normal" person to get rich too...so let's allow normal people to rob banks. In any case, I am not downplaying their reasons for wanting to come here...I would too if I were in Mexico. Just because they want to doesn't give them the right to though, and I shouldn't be made to feel bad because I won't let them in.
How many homeless people are living in your house right now? Oh! You won't let them in? They are hard-working people that just need a home. Or are you worried about your family's safety and well-being too much to let random people you don't know anything about into your home? How about if they didn't even ask? One day you come home and there are 25 people living in your house. You don't call the cops if that happens? My country is my home...people get to come here when I say so, not when they do.
Imagine, if you will, that massive immigration reform (and not just amnesty) was implemented in the 1980's and all the illegal aliens you see today were now PR's or citizens. Imagine that their improved economic status and a good vetting process improved conditions a bit--smaller crowds of day laborers, fewer families packed into apartments, fewer unliscesed or uninsured motorists, less crime, less drugs, more taxes being paid. However, assume that their culture was about the same--you still run across 1st generation immigrants who speak only spanish, you still have large celebrations and demonstrations on May 5th, etc. Since they came with little savings and many take low-income jobs their socio-economic situation isn't perfect, so there are still overcrowded hospitals, gangs, crime, and drugs, just at somewhat lower levels.
Would you still feel invaded? Would you still want them to "go back where they came from?" Documents or no. Be honest.
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Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
How many homeless people are living in your house right now? Oh! You won't let them in? They are hard-working people that just need a home. Or are you worried about your family's safety and well-being too much to let random people you don't know anything about into your home? How about if they didn't even ask? One day you come home and there are 25 people living in your house. You don't call the cops if that happens? My country is my home...people get to come here when I say so, not when they do.
Analogies again. Here's a better one: There are about 10 transients who are "regulars" in my neighborhood. They hang out around the liquor store, market, and a couple of diners shooting the breeze and occasionally asking for money. However, it's MY neighborhood. My taxes pay for the sidewalk repairs, cops, and hospitals that they sometimes need. There's a "no loitering" sign in front of my apt, but they hang out on the steps anyway.
Do I call the cops on them for sleeping in front of my place or asking me for some change? Do I want them shipped to skid row? No. Of course not. The law might say they can't be there, but they don't bother me. Sure they leave shopping carts all over the place and **** on the bushes, but so what? Something in the system went wrong for them and it doesn't cost me much of anything to give 'em a break. If I was down on my luck, I'd probably be doing the same thing.
The same thing applies to the majority of illegal immigrants. Something in the system didn't work for them. The system SHOULD have either kept them at home or let them in with proper documentation. But the system is broken, and the result is we've got a horde of illegal aliens. I think we should fix the system first, and then give them a break, rather than call the cops to deport them and leave the system in it's current screwed up state. I believe it will cost us less in the long run.
The amnesty that was granted back in the 80's was a failure and is the main reason we are in this mess we are in today. If Reagan actually secured our borders using a fifty to a hundred thousand troops, backed up with the appropriate number of armored divisions, we certainly wouldn't be in this mess. So the only thing legalizing these thugs and criminals will do is attract more of them. Then in ten or twenty years we will hear again how we need to legalize even more criminals.
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