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sponger: What is wrong with eliminating the jobs so that they will self-deport? What is wrong with that? And why--for the umpteenth time--do you feel it is the responsibility of American citizens to bear the burden--economic, social and environmental--of illegal immigrants? Very magnanimous of you to want to "give them a break." Unfortunately, that requires serious involuntary sacrifice on the part of American taxpayers. You didn't reply to the points I made in my other posting, so. . . .?
Imagine, if you will, that massive immigration reform (and not just amnesty) was implemented in the 1980's and all the illegal aliens you see today were now PR's or citizens. Imagine that their improved economic status and a good vetting process improved conditions a bit--smaller crowds of day laborers, fewer families packed into apartments, fewer unliscesed or uninsured motorists, less crime, less drugs, more taxes being paid. However, assume that their culture was about the same--you still run across 1st generation immigrants who speak only spanish, you still have large celebrations and demonstrations on May 5th, etc. Since they came with little savings and many take low-income jobs their socio-economic situation isn't perfect, so there are still overcrowded hospitals, gangs, crime, and drugs, just at somewhat lower levels.
Would you still feel invaded? Would you still want them to "go back where they came from?" Documents or no. Be honest..
You say "be honest" because you think I have deep underlying issues with Mexicans, and not just illegal immigrants. But you'd be dead wrong. America was founded on the "melting pot"...cultures coming together from across the world. I would have no problem with anybody from any nation coming to the US legally, period.
You are trying to introduce a whole other aspect to this argument though, atnd that is "multiculturalism". As I mentioned before, America was founded on the "metlting pot" theory...many cultures coming together to form a new identity- the American culture. Over years Americans have come to create a new unique culture of their own. That culture involves pay hommage to cultures of their lineage in many situations: Irish pubs have large celebrations on St. Patty's day, Heck, even Iraqui-Americans shot off fireworks after recent victories in soccer here in America. Here's the rub- they are all still Americans. If you want to come here to be an American, fine. If you want to come her to recreate Mexico in the middle of America, then you are not subscribing to the "melting pot", rather a "mosaic" of fractured communities that shut themselves off from American culture. I don't care if you don't like American culture. I don't care if you speak Spanish. I don't care if you have different values than the US. There is a perfect place for you to live if you have those feelings...Mexico! I wouldn't move to France and then be upset that everyone there speaks French and feels their culture is superior to America's...I'd be an idiot to parade around in my cowboy hat driving my SUV and not expect to be shunned for it there. I wouldn't protest in the streets of Paris holding English signs. If you want to come to America to be an American, I have no problem with you. Problem is one of the first rules to being an American is that you respect the laws we have as a sovereign nation. By virtue of sneaking into the country against the law, it makes me wonder what your motive is, and worse makes you completely unAmerican right off the bat.
It might be best just ignore the pro illegal criminal immigration instigators. Facts and reasons seldom work with them. They are determined to protect lawlessness and destruction of our environment, way of life and resources through illegal immigration. Having said that, I do feel your frustration in dealing with these bizarre illegal alien criminal loving behaviors. I see them as trolls these days.
You say "be honest" because you think I have deep underlying issues with Mexicans, and not just illegal immigrants. But you'd be dead wrong. America was founded on the "melting pot"...cultures coming together from across the world. I would have no problem with anybody from any nation coming to the US legally, period.
You are trying to introduce a whole other aspect to this argument though, atnd that is "multiculturalism". As I mentioned before, America was founded on the "metlting pot" theory...many cultures coming together to form a new identity- the American culture. Over years Americans have come to create a new unique culture of their own. That culture involves pay hommage to cultures of their lineage in many situations: Irish pubs have large celebrations on St. Patty's day, Heck, even Iraqui-Americans shot off fireworks after recent victories in soccer here in America. Here's the rub- they are all still Americans. If you want to come here to be an American, fine. If you want to come her to recreate Mexico in the middle of America, then you are not subscribing to the "melting pot", rather a "mosaic" of fractured communities that shut themselves off from American culture. I don't care if you don't like American culture. I don't care if you speak Spanish. I don't care if you have different values than the US. There is a perfect place for you to live if you have those feelings...Mexico! I wouldn't move to France and then be upset that everyone there speaks French and feels their culture is superior to America's...I'd be an idiot to parade around in my cowboy hat driving my SUV and not expect to be shunned for it there. I wouldn't protest in the streets of Paris holding English signs. If you want to come to America to be an American, I have no problem with you. Problem is one of the first rules to being an American is that you respect the laws we have as a sovereign nation. By virtue of sneaking into the country against the law, it makes me wonder what your motive is, and worse makes you completely unAmerican right off the bat.
Cap
It does reveal a disturbing amount of hypocrisy, doesn't it? The reason you don't get a lot of calm, reasoned debate on this is that there's really no calm, reasoned rebuttal to the points you've made here. Those whose positions are grounded in logic can have reasoned discussions. Those whose positions rely on emotion and "feelings" must resort to name-calling and angry tirades to defend their stance. Good post!....:
Hawkeye88, Junkman, and MovingForward, you are all falling back on rhetoric and not addressing the real economic and social issues facing the country. You keep repeating how you feel about having illegals around and trading analogies, but that does nothing to solve the problem.
1. They violated the system. Like robbing a bank. The system is broken and lends itself to violations. Like prohibition.
2. They undercut US workers. They are a burden on social services. Because they have no documentation and therefore can't demand full pay/benefits and don't pay taxes.
3. They are changing the culture and demographics. Culture is dynamic, demographics are dynamic. They have alway changed, they will not stop or go back to what they were just because you wish it so. Even if you manage to deport a small fraction of the US population.
It seems that the difference between us is that I don't like having illegal aliens, and you just plain don't like illegal aliens. That is why allegations of bias are constantly tossed around. You can't deflect them by saying you'd hate illegal European immigrants just as much if we shared a border with Serbia.
Wanting to preserve the US environment is a valid point. Wanting to protect resources because "we were here first" is a valid--if selfish--point. I disagree with them to a certain extent, but they make sense. Pointing to the effects of an ill-written law and saying that this means the people and not the law are bad, is not a valid point. So let's talk about immigration law.
I gather from your arguments that you think the current system of immigration is just fine and dandy, and illegal aliens are bad people who broke a good system, but do you even understand the system you support?
You think it's fine to keep immigration rates at 0.5% of the US population, and to have those immigrants be allowed to immigrate mainly through virtue of their family ties (along with a handful of transferred international corp. employees and high-tech workers) regardless of skill, motivation, or disposition? You really think that we currently have a viable model?
I must say that you are quite adept at either ignoring or sidestepping the objections of others to illegal immigration. It is your right to condone illegal immigration in our nation(at least that is what I surmise), just as it is my right to be totally opposed to illegal immigration in the United States. We will just have to agree to disagree agreeably because you will never succeed in altering my perception of a problem that is a clear and present danger to our nation in this dangerous age we live in.
It might be best just ignore the pro illegal criminal immigration instigators. Facts and reasons seldom work with them. They are determined to protect lawlessness and destruction of our environment, way of life and resources through illegal immigration. Having said that, I do feel your frustration in dealing with these bizarre illegal alien criminal loving behaviors. I see them as trolls these days.
Let's not resort to insulting a person's intelligence. I think Sponger made some very valid points, but if we want to sway him to our "side," we'd do better to engage rather than implying he or she is stupid.
sponger: (1) What is wrong with eliminating the jobs so that they will self-deport? What is wrong with that? (2) And why--for the umpteenth time--do you feel it is the responsibility of American citizens to bear the burden--economic, social and environmental--of illegal immigrants? Very magnanimous of you to want to "give them a break." Unfortunately, that requires serious involuntary sacrifice on the part of American taxpayers. You didn't reply to the points I made in my other posting, so. . . .?
Because there's a lot of opinions and rhetoric flying, try to quote me when you want to talk specifics, and ask direct questions when you want a point responded to. I try to dig out the important arguments, but I may gloss over things you feel are important that I consider inconsequential.
(1) What is wrong with eliminating jobs? Uh, economic contraction leads to recessions. Those are generally bad. Do I really need to provide a theoretical example? Okay, let's say you shut down a meat-packing plant in a small town because they employ illegals. 100 illegals self-deport and 20 US citizens go on unemployment. The demand for services from those 120 people now diminishes. The local grocery store finds itself overstocked so it orders less bread from the bakery. The bakery in turn lays off 10 illegals and 5 US citizens. This sort of chain-reaction ripples through the system when you eliminate both suppliers and consumers through external summary intervention. The smarter thing to do is to slowly raise the price of labor by documenting the workers and letting them demand fair wages.
(2) Why do we bear the burden of illegals? We shouldn't. They should bear their own burden, and the lack of documentation is what prevents them from doing so. I think you really want to know why we should bear the burden of immigrants in general. (If we were to implement my suggestions to the immigration problem.)
I believe we are a country of immigrants. I think our strength is that we continue to accept new peoples and ideas. I think that's how we will avoid the stagnation and collapse that plagues all powerful nations. I don't think 0.5% of the population is too great a quota to allow for immigration. I think we need to look outward for more resources to support our population as it expands at a controlled rate.
We could seal the borders and stop immigration. We could deport the illegals. Maybe everything would be just peachy then. But I doubt it. Every great civilization has collapsed when it ceased to grow and began to stagnate--from the Mongol Conquers to the Romans, to the British Empire. Closing our borders to all comers would be the beginning of the end of our country's greatness. That's why I argue for more immigration. I do not make my arguements in a void. There are many things our country must do to remain powerful. Allowing immigration is only one of the steps forward we must take. Technological expansion is another. Social reform yet another, but those are outside the scope of the immigration debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
You say "be honest" because you think I have deep underlying issues with Mexicans, and not just illegal immigrants.
I think you do can not see immigrants as having a positive effect on our country for various reasons. I did not intend to morally judge you based on your answer, I just wanted to know where you were coming from. I don't know if you are biased or racist, nor do I care. I want to know if you believe that Mexicans, Germans, Chinese, or whomever can make (and have made) positive contributions to our country (as well as negative ones). If you can make a good logical argument for your position, it doesn't matter if you care about skin color, creed, culture, or religion. People are allowed to think ethnocentrically if they want. That is one of the mainstream liberals' biggest mistakes; to assume that any sort of thought--even negative thought--must be stamped out. It is a part of human nature that we must deal with because we can't change it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikrich
I must say that you are quite adept at either ignoring or sidestepping the objections of others to illegal immigration. It is your right to condone illegal immigration in our nation(at least that is what I surmise), just as it is my right to be totally opposed to illegal immigration in the United States. We will just have to agree to disagree agreeably because you will never succeed in altering my perception of a problem that is a clear and present danger to our nation in this dangerous age we live in.
I believe I have addressed objections to illegal immigration. There are certainly negative aspects to legalizing illegals, but I think they are not as bad as the aspects of the current status quo or enforcing an arcane and obsolete immigraton law. Would you care to list objections that I have not addressed, so I can reply to them?
1) eliminating illegal jobs does not mean eliminating legal jobs. Your argument implies, basically, the same, tired old Bush argument that illegals take jobs that Americans don't want. Who do you think was working in those jobs before the influx of illegal immigrants? Legal immigrants (like members of my family), unskilled American laborers, and youth.
2) I didn't ask why we should bear the burden immigrants. I asked why we should bear the burden of illegal immigrants and, to this point, I haven't heard any good reasons for that. In fact, you tend to conflate illegal and legal immigrants, when they are not the same, and when the issues and problems which ensue don't begin to compare.
3) the myth of "we are a nation of immigrants": it's important to provide historical context. What was true and possible in 1907 is no longer true or possible.
4) the most important reason why: Neither the society nor the land can sustain the level of population which will arise through illegal immigration. That's simply a matter of fact--not opinion. And has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's "positive contributions." Your thinking is far too human-centered. Great civilizations have failed, most often, because of environmental destruction as much as anything else. Again, read Jared Diamond's "Collapse." There can be only limited social justice without environmental justice: As the Navajos and Hopis. Or the victims of Katrina. We can have only indirect positive affect on the environment of other nations, but we have a duty to protect the environment of this nation--and adding 20 million illegal immigrants and their eventual offspring (far above the average birth rate for the U.S.)--even for one generation--in addition to millions of legal immigrants, spells nothing but disaster. And environmental disaster brings disaster to human communities, as well.
5) Given the environmental and social strains on the U.S. by illegal immigrants, why are you against them returning to their own countries?
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