Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The fact is "americans" could have said the same thing about my ancestors when they arrived from Europe in 1896. They could have said "We can't afford to have these immigrants living in tenaments and struggling to make a life here". Thank god at the time it was much easier to legally enter this country. So I was lucky enough to be born here and automatically became a citizen thanks to our 1896 immigration policy. My great grandparents were farmers and cabinet makers...how 'bout yours? Today you have to be a college graduate in a field that "americans" can't fill in order to be allowed in. Hmmmm...seems elitist to me. There is no means for a "Blue Collar" immigrant to legally enter this country unless they have enough money to start their own business or marry a citizen.
So, does that mean that I agree with immigrants entering the country illegally. No, I don't. But these are not all bad people. Yes they broke our laws by entering into the country and some of them are criminals but I have known some that would gladly do whatever they had to to enter legally but it is next to impossible for most of them. They do not have college degrees and they can not afford to get them in their home countries.
The system needs to be re-worked. How about being on top of the politicians to get on it already.
The fact is "americans" could have said the same thing about my ancestors when they arrived from Europe in 1896. They could have said "We can't afford to have these immigrants living in tenaments and struggling to make a life here".
Right, they could have, but they didn't. Why? Because if your grandparents and my grandparents were starving, they'd, well, starve. Nobody would have to pay for them to live. They wouldn't be able to finagle the system to get welfare without actually contributing to anything. In fact, there WAS no welfare. They didn't send their children to public schools, the upkeep and salaries of which need to be *paid for* by somebody (hmmmmmmmm). For that matter, they wouldn't then receive free lunches. Your grandparents and my grandparents didn't get Section 8 housing. Also, I'm willing to bet your grandfather and my grandfather didn't go around shooting up the neighborhood. Why? Because they were so freaking bone-tired from working like dogs at any job they could get, ANY, to feed their families since nobody else was paying their way that they were probably too tired to so much as fire a gun, much less run around the neighborhood with it. There was no minimum wage then; you could literally pay an immigrant, a legal one at that, next to nothing. You could pay him literally nothing for two months' work after a lot of broken promises but he would never take you to court. How could he? Now he's scraping to see how he can possibly go back to the old country before any of his family dies of starvation. Oh yeah, bring back the old days...
But today, somebody does pay and this is why things have changed. We can't just say, "Come on in, but if you starve, you starve"; instead, we say, "Well, okay, you're here now. Let's just take a little more from the state funds to vaccinate your children and buy your food and housing." There just isn't the money for this; that is the problem, and the main difference between your and my grandfathers, and immigration into the U.S. today. It's not that anybody is being mean or spiteful. We just don't have the resources, not for the amount of people who want to come in, and for the extended periods of time they often don't or can't (it's harder for an immigrant to get a job; an illegal one gets paid "whatever" under the table, what's he gonna say about it?) support themselves entirely. (Obviously this doesn't include legals who, I believe--somebody correct me--have to have a reasonable job promised before they come here; among other stipulations).
This is why Immigration goes crazy on a legal entrant's paperwork as people here have complained. It's true, very very true. Immigration does in fact seem to make it harder on legals to come in than illegals--because you don't have to chase or catch legals. Chasing and catching and sending back or prosecuting or whatever it is, and the investigations to see how many in the household are illegal, or figuring out what to do with legally-US born children of illegals, etc. also take resources. Cops' time, taxpayers' money. So it's ironic and unfair that it's harder to get in as a legal, but there's just such a tidal wave of illegals, it's like plugging a d yke with nine million holes. It's imperfect but hell. We're just kind of sinking-or-swimming half the time with the illegal immigration issue, it seems.
Also, as I stated way back on the thread...we are way, and I mean waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more populous today than we were when your and my grandparents came. There just isn't the space.
Sure a lot of these people are nice people. Of course they are. But even the nicest person in the world needs to eat and have housing, to use public transportation, to have medical care. I can go to an orphanage tomorrow and look at 20 very, very, very nice, sweet children but can I take them home because they're nice, and financially support them? No. I can't. Yes, it's sad. But we can't fix the world's problems. I wish we could. I wish nobody ever had to suffer. But we do not have the resources to keep supporting the amount of immigrants we receive which is why Immigration tries, unsuccessfully, to keep it down to a dull roar. Or we could go the other way. We could manage to afford all these people better by, say, raising all OUR income taxes by, I don't know. Throwing a number out there. Twenty percent? That would go a huge way. Are we all willing to do that? Are we even able to do that? My family WOULD starve to death. (ETA: Or, well, no we wouldn't literally...I mean we're middle-class...have never received or requested government funds...etc. But we'd have to move away, go to inferior housing, an inferior place and place our kids in bad schools...why, exactly? Oh yeah, because other people came here illegally but they're nice, so I should give up my life in order to feed them.)
It's not a question of nice, deserving or anything else.
Oh, p.s. So how come this didn't make it to the Immigration forum?
It is just impossible to compare Ellis Island with people running across the freeway carrying children today. It's apples and oranges. Nobody wants to be mean and I feel for people in poorer conditions in other countries but for the love of pete. We have enough problems of our own and even those aren't fixed yet.
Just one more quick comment...I think it's also worthy of note that it wasn't as easy as some of us may think to come into Ellis Island. In those days, you WERE turned away...outright. You generally couldn't plead your case or take it to the court of law. You were just literally turned right around. That's if you survived the horrendous journey over, by boat.
They could turn you away for being ill. They could turn you away for an unproven illness but just generally looking like you might be ill and hence "a danger". You could be turned away for looking indigent. Or for looking like a general troublemaker. If you had marks on your hands showing you'd fought with someone on the ship, you were turned away. If your child looked peaked, and it was a baby, and therefore less likely to survive in general in those days, he could be thrust back on the boat. (Generally the parents would follow, obviously, and go home.)
Of course boatloads were allowed back then. Many, many, many of them were expected to die anyway; the rest were cheap, or sometimes free (with promises), labor. They were willing to live in the WORST squalor...not "30% of your income" Section-8. If they got sick, Mama made you soup, and if you didn't die, you got up the next day to look for work. Big business thought of immigration as ugly and undesirable to be with, but a fabulous boon to the economy as they were no drain on the system, and many contributed to it with their horrible, 7-day-a-week, dangerous, no-benefits job.
So. That's how today's immigrants in the U.S. spend their days? I mean think about it. Not hardly. I just don't see the comparison, nor the fantasy of how "welcoming" the U.S. was back then. Welcoming my heiney.
So...just thought I'd put that in. I mean since I'm in such a cheery mood anyway.
I'm not saying that we open our borders. I'm saying that there should be a means of letting hard working blue collar immigrants legally enter this country. I'm not saying make it easy. I'm just saying that we need to recognize that if you think that this country would function the same without the labor force that the currently "illegal immigrants" fulfill then you are sadly mistaken. And yes, we could go into social history and say the world is different today than it was 100 years ago but there is definitely a social amnesia that seems to happen when people talk about immigration. And...the reason those people are running across the highways is because there is no Ellis Island for them.
BTW. I adopted one of those sad orphans you speak about. I can barely afford it but my social conscience outweighed my need for a BMW and I don't get welfare or any other assistance. There are a lot of people out there that can afford to do a lot more than they're doing but they opt for the bigger house, fancier car, etc. (but that's for another post on another forum). But don't mistake this as me saying that I want to support a lot of welfare recipients with my tax dollars. I just know how good we have it here compared to most other countries and I think we need to continue to provide an opportunity to others that may not necessarily have a college degree but would like to find their "American Dream".
Americans were against immigration back in the day
JerZ -what planet are you on? The Italians were despised when they came over, before that the Irish, the Jews, the Chinese working the railroads you name it. Where do you think all those names came from - K*ke, Sp*k and the rest?
Just remember -the population in the US is aging, and there are not enough young people to support the Boomers as they start drawing social security. Without an influx of young blood to work and pay the bills (and wipe the spit off some old person in a nursing home for minimum wage), the country will go up the crapper, make no mistake about it.
The US needs labor to survive, we should definitely start some kind of lottery to allow more workers in legally. Unemployment nationally is at 4.5%, in some States even less, economically that is considered 0 -the minimum at which there is a big enough job pool for businesses to have a decent selection.
I'm not saying that we open our borders. I'm saying that there should be a means of letting hard working blue collar immigrants legally enter this country. I'm not saying make it easy. I'm just saying that we need to recognize that if you think that this country would function the same without the labor force that the currently "illegal immigrants" fulfill then you are sadly mistaken. And yes, we could go into social history and say the world is different today than it was 100 years ago but there is definitely a social amnesia that seems to happen when people talk about immigration. And...the reason those people are running across the highways is because there is no Ellis Island for them.
BTW. I adopted one of those sad orphans you speak about. I can barely afford it but my social conscience outweighed my need for a BMW and I don't get welfare or any other assistance. There are a lot of people out there that can afford to do a lot more than they're doing but they opt for the bigger house, fancier car, etc. (but that's for another post on another forum). But don't mistake this as me saying that I want to support a lot of welfare recipients with my tax dollars. I just know how good we have it here compared to most other countries and I think we need to continue to provide an opportunity to others that may not necessarily have a college degree but would like to find their "American Dream".
It is wonderful that you adopted a child. She is very lucky to have you for a mommy.
But...can you afford to adopt another one?
How about twenty more?
Probably not. THAT'S what I'm saying...not that we can't afford to help anybody at all; just that we can't afford to help the amount of people who come in. We can't afford it. Even without BMWs. Trust me, you're talking to a pretty granola-crunchy person here (who sure as heck doesn't have a BMW). We rent a house; we don't own. It's a small house and the size suits us fine. Not everybody just "chooses" not to help while running around like movie stars. That is not reality. Some people have tons and tons of stuff but the majority does not.
But even if we did...again...you're talking about choices here. Supporting people on our taxes takes away that choice. (Which to a point is fine...we are a society.) You adopted a child, by choice (again...I think that's wonderful and I'll bet you're a great mom). What if the orphanage said to you, "Oh, great! You're doing awesome! But since you *can* afford another one, and don't tell us you can't, just sell that big car for a used one and get rid of the internet and your cell phone, and downsize your house, you SPOILED American, we are now *requiring* you to take another, child" what would you say? This is the immigration issue we face today. (It is also, obviously, what we face in taxes going ultimately toward U.S. born down-and-out people, but again...I think our plate is pretty full just with that. I mean we're trying...that much I do have faith in. But the U.S. despite appearances to others is NOT a bottomless pit of financial wealth that we can literally just throw at anyone who needs it, even before we give it to our own people who were born right here; that's just not reality. Money comes from somewhere. Generally...it comes from you and me and anyone who is legal and works.)
I mean helping those in need is fine, even, I would dare to say, a must if you're any kind of human being at all. That's just social consciousness and being in a society. But the prohibitive amount of people drives those dollars way, way...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up. *This* is what we're facing today. And that is what we're saying. Not that we shouldn't help a few immigrants (and adopt a child); but that when it's a few million (by comparison, I don't know...two or three more adopted children in your family) then it gets unmanageable.
If it weren't unmanageable there wouldn't be the complaints. I think this is a very legitimate complaint. If I could save the world, I would. If this country truly could support the amount of people coming in then this wouldn't be a problem. But it is a problem.
I don't think I'll answer this thread anymore because this issue is so emotional that it makes my heart hurt--guilt, a little resentment, empathy, these things don't go together but they are all involved when thinking about illegal immigration. Again...I hope this one scoots on over to the Immigration Forum. I don't think it ever had anything to do with New Jersey. But again, I wanted to tell you, I'm glad there are people like you who are willing to adopt. I'll bet your daughter is wonderful.
But this thread is just too emotional and it's something people generally don't agree on, so...I'll just leave off but you can PM me if you have questions about things I've said or whatever.
JerZ -what planet are you on? The Italians were despised when they came over, before that the Irish, the Jews, the Chinese working the railroads you name it. Where do you think all those names came from - K*ke, Sp*k and the rest?
I don't get this--isn't this basically what I just said? That things were not some happy fantasy of the U.S. welcoming anyone? That they were used, abused by the work force...or turned away for many, many reasons...Or do you have the wrong poster?
ETA: Oh no, wait wait, I see what you're saying. No, I'm not saying that *society* wanted Immigration. There have always been bigots, and in the past, these weren't cloaked and they didn't hold their tongues or their fists. I'm saying that *big business* (in fact I think I stated it this way...so this must be a misunderstanding) was all for incredibly cheap or incredibly free labor as long as they didn't have to live "with" or near immigrants.
Gaaaaaaaaaaaah! I don't like this thread. No more reading for me! It's a tough situation and I don't think we're going to solve it here...and I don't like arguing with people I've been getting along with... It sucks...If I had the answer to this problem, I'd give it...but then again if the answer existed, this country probably wouldn't be having all the problems associated with immigration.
I didn't want to offend anyone or anger anyone but it is a VERY VERY emotional subject...no matter who you are.
Thank you AnthonyB. You got to one of the most important points that I feel is pertinent. We need people and there needs to be a way to get them here legally...so not only do I think we need to continue to welcome the tired, poor, huddled masses but there is a need in this country for these people as well and I will leave it at that.
And JerZ if you have continued to read the thread thanks for the compliment. I hope that I am a great mom and I would adopt 100 more if I could. I'm a bleeding heart...I like EVERYBODY to be happy...I can't help myslelf...so don't stress over this. We aren't going to solve the problem of immigration here...if it were up to just you and me I'm sure we could figure something out much faster and more efficiently than our elected officials:-) and maybe we would both be satisfied.
The fact is "americans" could have said the same thing about my ancestors when they arrived from Europe in 1896. They could have said "We can't afford to have these immigrants living in tenaments and struggling to make a life here". Thank god at the time it was much easier to legally enter this country. So I was lucky enough to be born here and automatically became a citizen thanks to our 1896 immigration policy. My great grandparents were farmers and cabinet makers...how 'bout yours? Today you have to be a college graduate in a field that "americans" can't fill in order to be allowed in. Hmmmm...seems elitist to me. There is no means for a "Blue Collar" immigrant to legally enter this country unless they have enough money to start their own business or marry a citizen. So, does that mean that I agree with immigrants entering the country illegally. No, I don't. But these are not all bad people. Yes they broke our laws by entering into the country and some of them are criminals but I have known some that would gladly do whatever they had to to enter legally but it is next to impossible for most of them. They do not have college degrees and they can not afford to get them in their home countries. The system needs to be re-worked. How about being on top of the politicians to get on it already.
First of all, it was not easy to enter back in the 1800's. You needed a sponsor and a job. You were tested for disease. If you did not make$$-your sponsor had to support you. There was no welfare, food stamps, section 8, ESL, free medicaid, etc, etc, etc,etc. These people came worked hard, learned English, assimilated, got no freebies and came legally. To even compare a legal or illegal immigrant of today to back then is like apples to oranges. If an immigrant-legal or illegal comes today and is over 65 and has not paid one dime into social security, they are still allowed to collect. Does no one care about that?
Illegal aliens pay $5,000-sometimes $10,000 to get a coyote to smuggle themselves in. These are people with no $$? They are BAD people. They are here and have committed IDENTITY THEFT. That is not bad? How else do they work if they are here illegally? They steal id and ss numbers. How about all the Americans a few weeks ago on the front page of the NY Post who had to pay $10,000 and postpone their weddings becasue "hard working" illegals stole their identities and got fake marriage certificates? Where is the sympathy for them?
If I comitted ID theft I would go to jail-they are rewarded-nothing happens to them and they get all their welfare,etc. Illegal Aliens have more rights than citizens of this country and it is disgusting.
Another fallacy is that we need all these illegals to do jobs Americans "refuse" to do. The greedy companies hire illegals because they can supress American wages and pay them under the table with no benefits. All illegals need to be deported. Borders completely sealed. Then and only then, once all Americans are employed we bring in people on temporary work visas, which need to be renewed. If a company has layoffs-they go home and Americans keep their jobs.
Why is it our responsibility to save the world? We are by far the most generous country than all others-trillions of $$ in aid, food, medicine to other countries yet we have people here unemployed amd hungry-where is the outrage over that?. We also allow more legal immigrants in then any other country? Why is it always up to us?
You say you were lucky to be born here-yes you were. So was I . But what are we supposed to let everyone in? In the last 30 years, we have added 100million people-that is obscene. We are bursting at the seams. Because of illegals hospitals and schools are failing. They come here, burn our flag, spit on our culture and take all our freebies. They come here for freebies not to be Americans. They send all their $$ back home. Did you know what Mexico's second biggest revenue source is, behind tourism? Money that illegals here wire back to Mexico. Money that they have received in the form of wellfare, etc from taxpayers. Money taken by jobs Americans aren't allowed to do because greedy companies hire only illegals.
Illegals kill between 12-20 people a day. These are 12-20 Americans who would still be alive if we just had enforced current immigration laws. But I guess they don't matter they are just priviledged Americans who are born here.
How many of you have educated yourself on this before just buying into the sob stories of poor hard working illegals. How many of you know about AZTLAN? I suggest researching it and you tell me how your life will be in 20 years if this continues.
People need to wake up and really educate themselves on what Illegal Aliens are doing to this country and to your children's future. Please don't go to the mainstream media because you won't get the truth. Go to real sources like ALIPAC who are for legal immigration, MAII, You Don't speak for Me and Ted Hayes. This are groups that cross racial and ethnic lines, that way you will see this has nothing to do with race. It is about saving the country for your kids and theirs. Do you want your kids to live in America or a third world country?
Whether you agree or disagree with me, why not research this-really research this. Go to all sources not just the MSM. Look at books that have been written-there is a ton of info on the internet. Go to You Tube and enter "crime victims of illegal aliens" You tube has a lot of videos of protests, speeches, etc. Educate yourself and then make a decision. While it may be a noble idea to save the world, shouldn't you want a safe and prosperous good future for your children too?
I do think we should allow in immigrants who can fulfill a labor market that is not currently being fulfilled...and after being an HR Manager for 16 years I truly understand the labor market! I've never hired anyone who wasn't here legally but I could have used a lot more people with that work ethic.
I agree, these immigrants should have sponsors and jobs and they should "earn" a path to citizenship but currently there isn't one for people of lower economic status from other countries.
And please do no tell me that Mexicans are taking jobs away from Americans so that employers can save money...now whose buying into the media. Yes, I'm sure there are illegals being paid below minimum wage but there are a lot that are making a lot of money because they WORK. So I'm willing to say that we should allow people who can perform these jobs into the country legally so they can pay taxes and wont be burdening the system.
OK....I'm not going to go point to point. As JerZ said, this is an emotional issue. I'm done with this thread.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Americans were against immigration back in the day
I don't think it ever had anything to do with New Jersey. But again, I wanted to tell you, I'm glad there are people like you who are willing to adopt. I'll bet your daughter is wonderful.
No more reading for me! It's a tough situation and I don't think we're going to solve it here...and I don't like arguing with people I've been getting along with... 
It sucks...If I had the answer to this problem, I'd give it...but then again if the answer existed, this country probably wouldn't be having all the problems associated with immigration.
