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Some people will say anything to promote illegal immigration. This has nothing to do with religion. It's LAW. We do not start picking an choosing what laws we want to follow based on religion. Get a grip.
Yes, please give us California types a LITTLE slack...I'm actually a "secondary Californian"---born in Oregon to the descendants of San Franciscans. I'm probably related to half of San Francisco, yet I DON'T "let my hair grow long and shaggy"...I DON"T use the American flag as apparel---and I'm STRAIGHT....(I admit I DO sort of like the color lavender, though).
BTW---I never said Oklahoma isn't "wide-open liberal" as a slam--just as a fact. Montana gets cold. California has a beach. Oklahoma is conservative. No "slam", just the facts.
AND ONE FINAL NOTE, Convert 54...this isn't a "slam" either, but in the San Joaquin Valley there's a class of whites who refer to themselves as "C.I.O.'s"....which stands for "California Improved Okies"---(sounds like a variety of melon or tomato, I know). These "CIO's" acknowledge their "Okie" roots---but somehow feel they're now "improved". Whether this is a "slam" at their ancestors or not, I couldn't say......
Ok, so then, I will owe ya a beer if yer ever out this way.
And to repeat Im not an Okie as I have never lived in California
I believe MacMeal, as well as myself are on the same side as you, so I'm not sure what you're upset about. BTW, us California "types" aren't all the same, so don't assume that we are. Labelling me as a tree hugging, bleeding heart liberal could cause the conversation to get a little "dicey" indeed.
Whos upset.
Neither are us Oklahomans the same. I dont like horses, I dig hot rods. I served my country back in 70and I have only one thing to say ta tree huggers, get outa the way, the chain saw might hurt.
What I find really hypocritical about some of these unenlightened people obssessed with illegal immigration is the fact that many of them are "devout Christians". Regardless of the situation, the Bible clearly states that "all are equal in dignity before God". Also, from a Christian/religious perspective, the whole concept of a human being being "illegal" is absurd. I wonder if Jesus treated people differently based on their "immigration status". Anyways, it amazing how hypocritical and unenlightened some of these "devout Christians" can be.
You do realize the "separation of state and religion" right? State says you are illegal and religion says okay, now that you are here illegally we can do this the right way (deport you back) or the wrong way (let you stay)... if the illegals are not heathens, they would say "Yes, my brother we understand we broke your laws, we will return to our country as it is the right thing to do"... unfortunately, none of them have done so... act like heathens and be treated like heathens!
Leaving the Bible out of any discussion about illegal immigration might be a good idea. However, as a person unaffiliated with any religious organization, I've always felt it a bit unfair that it's "open season" on all my ideas, while the person who can claim some church or temple membership enjoys immunity to reasonable scrutiny, question, doubt or criticism. Especially in the United States, a religion is a chosen ideology usually including mandates regarding behavior and lifestyle. If you choose to believe something and you choose to behave according to certain principles, I see no reason why you should not be held accountable and responsible for your beliefs and practices. I, too, find the general attitudes expressed on these forums toward undocumented residents to be at odds with my understanding of what Christian attitudes are advertised to be.
But I have mixed feelings about how to handle the situation. I don't want to offend people of good faith and good will, and I wouldn't want the discussion to deteriorate into a religious quarrel. But, if some beliefs and practices of an organized religion have had clear impact on the realities being discussed, avoiding the topic of religion might constitute an avoidance of mentioning factors having direct bearing on the realities we are examining.
As macmeal points out, Judeo-Christian scripture has little to say about driving under the influence of prescribed psychotropic drugs, nor do I know of any New Testament mention of glue-sniffing or identity theft.
I often feel tempted to take a poll of the basic beliefs of all forum participants just to see if there is any chance of our ever having a true discussion about illegal immigration. As I scan over most posts, I get the uneasy feeling that the true purpose of the forums is to give people who are so inclined an opportunity to vent their frustration and anger provoked by the large numbers of undocumented Mexicans in their home areas. There is nothing really wrong with that. Both countries, the US and Mexico, are in nearly catastrophic situations. However, I did not jump into the conversation to either win a debate or to persuade frustrated Americans that they have to "like" Mexicans.
I had hoped that some among you might be interested in exploring some reasonable and humane way to satisfy our respective wishes. Many of you want Mexicans to go home, and I want Mexicans to STAY home in a Mexico made livable for Mexicans.
I can't make any headway if the majority of the forum participants are interested only in endlessly repeating that they don't like the Mexican presence in their country. I confess that I have disappointingly little to offer in terms of good ideas or solutions. I have suggested - insisted - that one way to discourage the presence of undocumented workers is to quit hiring them, but most responses to that suggestion were mere repetitions of the complaints about the numbers of undocumented workers in the US. I'm assuming that most of you are writing from the US and are citizens of what continues to be the world's most powerful nation. I had hoped that you might offer some humane remedies aside from vigilante aggression or the building of great walls and fences toward solving your problem with undocumented workers.
If, in fact, most of you claim to be Christian, and if, in fact, you are better educated than your ignorant neighbors south of the Rio Grande, I would kinda like to see better evidence.
I was called upon to address the issue of ignorance in Mexico. I'm now wondering if I shouldn't ask some of you to return the favor by conceding that the comments on these forums from Americans don't demonstrate any remarkable breadth or depth of knowledge --- about anything. None of us seem to be very promising candidates for playing and winning at "Jeopardy." Maybe Mexico isn't the only country in North America with a failed educational system and prevailing ignorance.
Well, I will do my best to disregard the prevailing Christian presence on these forums, by pretending not to see the posts suggesting that Mexicans should be blown away, and I will do my best to avoid the topic of religion.
But, if all I'm doing is interrupting a forum intended to give frustrated Americans an opportunity to vent their anger against Mexicans, please advise me, and I will cease and desist from interrupting your exclusive group-therapy sessions. I'm used to being an unwanted presence, but I wouldn't want to stand in the way of anybody's efforts to achieve mental health.
If I'm not driven out, or stuck behind a fence, I really wish I could get a little more support from the rest of you in guiding the discussion toward more relevant and humane views and issues --- assuming that this forum is really intended for the discussion of illegal immigration. Maybe we could work toward coming up with more constructive solutions to the problems of both nations. Maybe we could behave more like fellow human beings rather than angry reactionaries or campus hotshots who simply want to win debates rather than face realities.
But, it's your world. I'm just passing through on the south side of the river.
Leaving the Bible out of any discussion about illegal immigration might be a good idea. However, as a person unaffiliated with any religious organization, I've always felt it a bit unfair that it's "open season" on all my ideas, while the person who can claim some church or temple membership enjoys immunity to reasonable scrutiny, question, doubt or criticism. Especially in the United States, a religion is a chosen ideology usually including mandates regarding behavior and lifestyle. If you choose to believe something and you choose to behave according to certain principles, I see no reason why you should not be held accountable and responsible for your beliefs and practices. I, too, find the general attitudes expressed on these forums toward undocumented residents to be at odds with my understanding of what Christian attitudes are advertised to be.
But I have mixed feelings about how to handle the situation. I don't want to offend people of good faith and good will, and I wouldn't want the discussion to deteriorate into a religious quarrel. But, if some beliefs and practices of an organized religion have had clear impact on the realities being discussed, avoiding the topic of religion might constitute an avoidance of mentioning factors having direct bearing on the realities we are examining.
As macmeal points out, Judeo-Christian scripture has little to say about driving under the influence of prescribed psychotropic drugs, nor do I know of any New Testament mention of glue-sniffing or identity theft.
I often feel tempted to take a poll of the basic beliefs of all forum participants just to see if there is any chance of our ever having a true discussion about illegal immigration. As I scan over most posts, I get the uneasy feeling that the true purpose of the forums is to give people who are so inclined an opportunity to vent their frustration and anger provoked by the large numbers of undocumented Mexicans in their home areas. There is nothing really wrong with that. Both countries, the US and Mexico, are in nearly catastrophic situations. However, I did not jump into the conversation to either win a debate or to persuade frustrated Americans that they have to "like" Mexicans.
I had hoped that some among you might be interested in exploring some reasonable and humane way to satisfy our respective wishes. Many of you want Mexicans to go home, and I want Mexicans to STAY home in a Mexico made livable for Mexicans.
I can't make any headway if the majority of the forum participants are interested only in endlessly repeating that they don't like the Mexican presence in their country. I confess that I have disappointingly little to offer in terms of good ideas or solutions. I have suggested - insisted - that one way to discourage the presence of undocumented workers is to quit hiring them, but most responses to that suggestion were mere repetitions of the complaints about the numbers of undocumented workers in the US. I'm assuming that most of you are writing from the US and are citizens of what continues to be the world's most powerful nation. I had hoped that you might offer some humane remedies aside from vigilante aggression or the building of great walls and fences toward solving your problem with undocumented workers.
If, in fact, most of you claim to be Christian, and if, in fact, you are better educated than your ignorant neighbors south of the Rio Grande, I would kinda like to see better evidence.
I was called upon to address the issue of ignorance in Mexico. I'm now wondering if I shouldn't ask some of you to return the favor by conceding that the comments on these forums from Americans don't demonstrate any remarkable breadth or depth of knowledge --- about anything. None of us seem to be very promising candidates for playing and winning at "Jeopardy." Maybe Mexico isn't the only country in North America with a failed educational system and prevailing ignorance.
Well, I will do my best to disregard the prevailing Christian presence on these forums, by pretending not to see the posts suggesting that Mexicans should be blown away, and I will do my best to avoid the topic of religion.
But, if all I'm doing is interrupting a forum intended to give frustrated Americans an opportunity to vent their anger against Mexicans, please advise me, and I will cease and desist from interrupting your exclusive group-therapy sessions. I'm used to being an unwanted presence, but I wouldn't want to stand in the way of anybody's efforts to achieve mental health.
If I'm not driven out, or stuck behind a fence, I really wish I could get a little more support from the rest of you in guiding the discussion toward more relevant and humane views and issues --- assuming that this forum is really intended for the discussion of illegal immigration. Maybe we could work toward coming up with more constructive solutions to the problems of both nations. Maybe we could behave more like fellow human beings rather than angry reactionaries or campus hotshots who simply want to win debates rather than face realities.
But, it's your world. I'm just passing through on the south side of the river.
To the average American tax payer this is nothing more than financial. These Illegals could be from Mars and it would still be the same. It is costing each American financially and we are fed up with it. Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings but we have our own lives to attend to without being forced to adopt or raise someone else less fortunate. That is a beef you need to take up with your Mother, your Father or your God whomever that might be. I didn't put you here so why should I be responsible for your plight? Hey, sure there are many with cash to donate to places that can help you in your home Country but most of us are just trying to survive too.
So everyone with their hand on their race card, with their bible in one hand or their Mexican or Guatemalan flag in the other we don't really care one way or another about you, just get your hands out of our pockets. We aren't responsible for you. Live your life without impeding on ours, thanks.
(Other participants might want to check out the following site - snippit pasted below message.
ECONOMIC DOWNTURN AFFECTS POVERTY RATE IN MEXICO. | Latin America > Mexico from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-news/12378881-1.html - broken link)
I don't think it would interest Angry Taxpayer. I hope it is permissible to paste snippets from related sites. I will include the URLs All below my response to the 1 Angry Taxpayer.)
Angry Taxpayer:
Are you talking to me? When or where have I ever asked for your financial support? When or where have I ever asked anybody on this forum for financial support? When or where have I ever asked Americans to give money to Mexico or to Mexicans? You must be confusing me with somebody else on the forum.
Anyway, thanks for permitting me - encouraging me - to communicate with my mother, my father, or my God, but they have made no clear or direct statements on this forum. You really should get to know me better before you refer to my deceased family members, and it might also make you look less goofy if you understood my posts before making inappropriate responses to them. But, whatever works for you and the other participants is fine with me. I live in an ignorant nation, so I'm used to stupid discussions.
I don't have my hands in your pockets. I wouldn't put my hands in your pockets. I would be concerned about issues of hygiene with a person so obsessed over his paltry tax contributions. The pocket might contain the same bacteria-ridden dollar-bill you made as a paper boy and kept for fear of being overcharged for detergent.
I was legally employed for over half a century and never made a dime that wasn't taxed. Where do you get the strange idea that "Taxpayers" constitute some sort of exclusive club, and that you, in particular, are the most overcharged and the least represented?
I believe that it has now been five times in previous posts that you've missed my clear statement that I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country. (And you do seem to think that it is exclusively "your" country, in which you are the only person paying taxes.) Let me help you out in understanding what I say. Maybe it's a line-spacing issue. Or maybe you're so busy paying taxes that my following statement - clearly stated in previous posts - always escapes your attention:
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
If you still have some problem reading or grasping the meaning of that statement, maybe you have a grandchild or a ten-year-old neighbor kid who could read it aloud and explain it to you. Or I could send you and mp3 file of the statement.
You see, the purpose of some forums is to discuss issues. That would mean to some of us that it's about sharing ideas and knowledge. This may be an alien concept for you, best kept behind some fence in the desert, but there really are a few people who know things, have a general interest in humanity, and enjoy sharing their ideas. That's about all that can be accomplished on an Internet forum. None of us are going to have significant impact on the course of national events, but we could at least talk to each other and share ideas like reasonably intelligent human beings.
The kind of "help" I was hoping to find on this forum was in terms of IDEAS that might be considered and maybe someday implemented toward satisfying our shared interest. I neither asked for nor wanted financial contributions to either myself or to Mexico. Do you still remember what our shared interest might be? Let me help you out again. I don't want to place any undue strain on your overtaxed intellect:
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
I, too, am opposed to the presence of undocumented Mexicans in your country.
Do you find that statement too taxing? Maybe some other participants could help me simplify the vocabulary and phrasing for you. Any volunteers? Well, if it's too difficult, I don't want to tax your patience.
So, Angry Taxpayer, since you feel that sharing ideas toward the most effective and humane way of making Mexico more livable for Mexicans is too expensive, and that my asking you to give it some reasonable thought reflects my desire to put my hand in your pocket, why don't you simply quit responding to my posts?
You neither like nor understand what I'm trying to say or what I would like to discuss, and you have become progressively more insulting in expressing your reactionary, tax-obsessed concerns.
I am NOT impeding on your life by participating in a public forum. I carry no Bible nor any other presumably sacred scriptures, and I wave no flag. I love the United States and I love Mexico. I am generally concerned for the welfare of ALL of us who inhabit this planet - currently threatened by nuclear war, economic collapse, and the possible failure of many - if not all - states and governments.
There is something I would ask you to consider if I thought you were capable of grasping the thought. I will bring it up with some hope that other participants may be able to share the thoughts:
If we are successful in bringing all Mexicans back to Mexico in Mexico's current economic and political condition, and if a fence remains the best idea America has toward defending its failing economy, lowered expectations, and deteriorating lifestyle, bear in mind that the militarization of Mexico is occurring because of the growing institutional irrelevance in Mexico. That is to say that, like Somalia, Mexico is in danger of becoming a failed state.
If things get worse, and they undoubtedly will, meditate on the possibilities of having a "Somaila" as your neighbor as your own institutions are failing. I hope your fence, which, by the way, will cost more of your angry tax dollars, provides you with all the comfort and security you are hoping for.
Good luck.
For other participants, I hope it isn't illegal for me to post snippets from other sites that might interest you. See below:
ECONOMIC DOWNTURN AFFECTS POVERTY RATE IN MEXICO. | Latin America > Mexico from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-news/12378881-1.html - broken link)
The economic prospects are not good for Mexico in the near term, which could mean a further expansion in the poverty rate in 2009 and 2010. President Felipe Calderon's administration has projected that the economy will shrink by more than 5% in 2009 (see SourceMex, 2009-05-20), and many forecasters do not see much chance of a recovery in 2010.
The outbreak of the H1N1 virus, or swine flu, in Mexico in April paralyzed economic activity for several days, adding to Mexico's economic woes (see SourceMex, 2009-05-06).
"We are not certain about the full effect of the recent crisis, but we know that it could affect employment, especially tourism," said Alex Van Trotsenburg, director of the World Bank division that monitors Mexico and Colombia. "We believe that it could have a negative impact on poverty in Mexico."
Some observers believe the economic crisis will have a greater impact on Mexico than the one that occurred almost a decade and a half ago. Enrique Quintana, a financial columnist for the Mexico City daily newspaper Reforma, said the crisis could have worse consequences than the one in 1995. "The difference now is that we cannot count on exports to bail out our economy," said Quintana. (Sources: Inter Press Service, 05/23/09; Excelsior, 05/26/09; Notimex, 05/25/09, 05/26/09, 05/28/09, 05/31/09; La Cronica de Hoy, DiaroNoticias, 06/01/09; El Diario, 06/02/09; Reforma, 05/23/09, 06/12/09; La Jornada, 05/26/09, 06/24/09; Associated Press, 06/24/09)
I can't make any headway if the majority of the forum participants are interested only in endlessly repeating that they don't like the Mexican presence in their country. I confess that I have disappointingly little to offer in terms of good ideas or solutions. I have suggested - insisted - that one way to discourage the presence of undocumented workers is to quit hiring them, but most responses to that suggestion were mere repetitions of the complaints about the numbers of undocumented workers in the US. I'm assuming that most of you are writing from the US and are citizens of what continues to be the world's most powerful nation.
This would be the logical thing to do, wouldn't it?
America is a slow nation where many put their pocketbooks and quarterly figures before their own citizens and citizenship. They're catching on a little bit finally. But I do find hysterical is when some Americans like to exclaim to their illegal immigrants: "WHY DID YOU MAKE ME HIRE YOU? YOU MADE ME HIRE YOU! YOU JUST HAAADD TO WORK FOR SO CHEAP AND THEN FORCE ME TO HIRE YOU!"
Moderator cut: English only, please
Regarding this forum, I went out searching for good, informative sites that I hoped participants might visit and study so that we would all have something a bit more substantial to discuss. I was going to paste the URLs so that everybody could get up to speed and have some clue about what is going on with the bigger picture, and how they might consider that the fate of Mexico will have more than local Mexican impact. Then I browsed over more posts related to immigration issues and saw that the chances of persuading such people to read and reason through the complex issues would be out of the question. I've noticed a decline in the quality of Net forums since the 80's. And, as you've probably noticed, when you find a group of people who make you feel like challenging their knowledge and logic is like stealing milk from a baby, they are the ones with the greatest confidence in their own unsubstantiated and erroneous beliefs and their own seriously limited abilities. A major problem with public debates is that they are inevitably and invariably won by people who can best articulate what the majority of listeners WANT to believe. Never mind that a debate is one thing and reality quite another.
So, if I don't win any popularity contests with my views on this forum, I guess I'll just have to pick up the pieces of my life and go on living somehow. Maybe I'll just drown my sorrows in a bottle of tequila. In the meantime, up to that time of when or if I am removed, chastised, exiled, or called a nasty name, I intend to go on presenting my knowledge, my views, and my reasons as kindly and rationally as possible.
I have had experiences - such as those you predict will happen to me here - while on other forums. People would send me thoughtful and intelligent messages such as "Why don't you go back with your stupid Mexican friends to where you came from." I hardly knew what to do since, at the time, I was already with my stupid Mexican friends in Mexico. I'll have the same problem if somebody on this forum advises stupid old me to go back with my stupid old friends in stupid old Mexico. But such talk is typical of people whose true concern with immigration is that they simply don't like Mexicans or anybody else who may speak a different language or be another shade of white or black. They deny this narrow mindedness, even to themselves, but when it becomes obvious that immigrants, illegal or legal, present no real threat to the well-being of these people, it also becomes obvious what the true nature of the anti-immigrant is.
But, there are people with valid objections to immigration, and, no matter what underlying pathology may motivate other anti-immigrants, we can appreciate the logic of stating that "the laws are the laws." In any event, I, for one, would be the happiest person in the world if all us stupid Mexicans could come back here where we came from and lead decent lives. But, I don't really discriminate that much. I would equally welcome the return of intelligent Mexicans who could help educate us stupid Mexicans.
So, Pitillanquies, I'm not really all that out of place among the anti-immigrant leagues.
At least there are participants on this forum who are bright enough to figure out that hiring undocumented residents is not really the best way to drive them out of the country. That's a step up from some other groups.
I try to stay calm and honest and thoughtful while here. But it would be nice if some of my opponents had better reading-comprehension skills and a bit more knowledge of the people and nation that they find so upsetting. So far, while knowing that I live in Ciudad Juarez, not one person has seriously addressed the issue of the militarization of Mexico or the military occupation of my city. Most seem oblivious to the drug-and-firearm exchanges going on between the criminals of both nations. Most seem oblivious to the fact that there has been greater loss of human life in the State of Chihuahua over the last two years than losses of life in Afghanistan.
Maybe they're just being nice by not bringing up topics that might make me feel bad. Actually, what makes me feel bad is that the firearms and ammunition used to kill my friends, family, neighbors and loved ones were provided by (fill in the blanks). But, no sense in getting into all that sloppy sentimentality.
Moderator cut: commenting on moderation in public is not allowed. contact me privately if you have any questions
Last edited by Yac; 10-05-2009 at 05:29 AM..
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