Trump's ICE Raids in LA have begun (license, suspected, driver)

[AnywhereElse]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Why should they report undocumented people? ICE isn't going to swoop in and arrest someone without cause and just not being a citizen isn't cause. In fact, it's not even a crime, it's a civil tort.

"Undocumented", aren't you aware that these people are stealing the identities of American citizens so are "documented" (ID fraud) and illegal aliens having entered the US without authorization. I can see if you didn't realize that why you would be confused.

Actually, ICE can swoop in to businesses and ask to see the documents that give the employees the right to work in the US and your illegal aliens and visa overstayers will have no or forged documents. When the police arrive, they ask for ID even if you are only reporting a crime or incident. The crime is not "not being a citizen", it is illegal entry which is a crime.

Improper entry is a CRIME: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...idavit-support

Unlawful presence, as in visa overstay, is a violation of federal immigration law but civil penalties of which deportation or removal are the prescribed ways of dealing with it.

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...idavit-support

"Google" before posting what you hear on liberal news for best results.

Originally Posted by Packard fan

Are you sure about that? ^^^ BTW: I think you mixed up legal alien and illegal alien; it's the illegals who CAN be picked up by LE.

Liberals make no distinction between "legal" and "illegal". I have no idea what they teach in school anymore but obviously nothing to do with American government. Liberal media feeds them nothing but foolishness. Facts just get in their way!

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by AnywhereElse

"Undocumented", aren't you aware that these people are stealing the identities of American citizens so are "documented" (ID fraud) and illegal aliens having entered the US without authorization. I can see if you didn't realize that why you would be confused.

Actually, ICE can swoop in to businesses and ask to see the documents that give the employees the right to work in the US and your illegal aliens and visa overstayers will have no or forged documents. When the police arrive, they ask for ID even if you are only reporting a crime or incident. The crime is not "not being a citizen", it is illegal entry which is a crime.

Improper entry is a CRIME: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...idavit-support

Unlawful presence, as in visa overstay, is a violation of federal immigration law but civil penalties of which deportation or removal are the prescribed ways of dealing with it.

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...idavit-support

"Google" before posting what you hear on liberal news for best results.

Liberals make no distinction between "legal" and "illegal". I have no idea what they teach in school anymore but obviously nothing to do with American government. Liberal media feeds them nothing but foolishness. Facts just get in their way!

I already posted the information regarding the difference between unlawful entry and unlawful presence? I sourced the information that I posted. Your problem is that you are trying to make this a "liberal" issue and it's clearly not. I am talking about the law as it exists, political partisanship has nothing to do with it.

Regarding this claim of yours:

When the police arrive, they ask for ID even if you are only reporting a crime or incident. The crime is not "not being a citizen", it is illegal entry which is a crime.

Police can ask for ID any time they want including when you report a crime, but you can refuse it in every state in this Country. As I already stated, the ONLY time that refusal to provide ID is if you are detained with probable cause for the commission of a crime

And unlawful presence does not infer unlawful entry, i.e. people who overstay visas. ICE will not attempt to prosecute an unlawful presence case as unlawful entry..

Regarding your comment about ICE raids of a business, the employees actually have rights:
"Employees may refuse to speak to immigration officers. Employees do not have to answer any questions. According to Stehlik, if immigration officers (or local police authorized by ICE to act as immigration enforcement) “do not have a warrant that names or otherwise specifies a person or people employed at a business, employees at a restaurant are under no obligation to speak with officers.” http://www.eater.com/2017/2/13/14599...aurant-workers

You really should research this stuff, it's all there for you, it's in plain english and there is really no excuse for just 'winging it' or 'making stuff up'.

[lvmensch]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

No, I am absolutely sure of it.

Unlawful Presence Is Not a Crime

Some may assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without legal status must have committed improper entry. This simply isn't the case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or travel visa, but fail to exit before their visa expires for a variety of reasons.

But mere unlawful presence in the country is not a crime. It is a violation of federal immigration law to remain in the country without legal authorization, but this violation is punishable by civil penalties, not criminal

Improper Entry Is a Crime

To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to: Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers; Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts. The punishment under this federal law is no more than six months of incarceration and up to $250 in civil penalties for each illegal entry.


Unlawful presence is not evidence of improper entry, it needs to be proven in court. Unlawful presence can result in deportation but the process for doing so is protracted and much more difficult than removing a immigrant who has been convicted of a serious or violent felony which is why most deportation policy focuses on 'criminal aliens'
Is Illegal Immigration a Crime? Improper Entry v. Unlawful Presence - FindLaw Blotter

Some states have laws allowing you to be arrested if you refuse to identify yourself when you have been detained for the commission of a crime, but it is not legal in any state to be arrested for refusing to produce ID if you are not detained.

And further the police must have an articuable suspicion that a crime has occurred to even ask your name. If there is no such suspicion you don't even need to give your name any more show id.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

And further the police must have an articuable suspicion that a crime has occurred to even ask your name. If there is no such suspicion you don't even need to give your name any more show id.

Exactly right

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by max210

They should report illegal aliens because they are law enforcement. If you saw an illegal activity would you not report it to the proper authorities? If a city planning inspector went to inspect your new room addition and they saw drugs, money and guns on the kitchen table, would you not expect them to notify the proper authorities? Or turn a blind eye as you're suggesting because that's not their job description. Come on, lol. FYI the smack smiley adds no credibility to your statement.

If an Officer takes a report from a person who he suspects is not a citizen and calls ICE what in the world do you think they can do? Unless they have a warrant for the person they can flip ICE off and walk away.

[Packard fan]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

And further the police must have an articuable suspicion that a crime has occurred to even ask your name. If there is no such suspicion you don't even need to give your name any more show id.

2 words: probable cause. Refuse to show ID and, that can earn you a trip to jail. Do you really wanna push your luck? I ain't that stupid cause I DON'T wanna feel the bracelets.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by Packard fan

2 words: probable cause. Refuse to show ID and, that can earn you a trip to jail. Do you really wanna push your luck? I ain't that stupid cause I DON'T wanna feel the bracelets.

That's not how it works.

"If police reasonably suspect you of a crime, they can detain you to investigate that crime. Some states have what are called "Stop and Identify" statutes that require someone suspected of criminal activity to provide identification to police, making refusal a crime. California has no such statute, so if you refuse to provide an ID while police are detaining you, they can't arrest you just for refusing." Daniele Watts, LAPD encounter raises question: When must you show ID? - LA Times

PS Unlawful presence is a civil tort, not a crime so you cannot be detained solely because an Officer suspects that you are in the US illegally.

[Annie1004]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Most Officers see no purpose in a 'round up' of illegal aliens, all it does is make them afraid to report crime or testify as a witness to crime. You really don't know jack about CHP if you think they are 'waiting to bust illegal alien'

I have lived in California my entire long life, and have never witnessed a crime nor testified as a witness or reported a crime. I lump this excuse with the "separating families" outcry. A myth.

[lvmensch]

Originally Posted by Packard fan

2 words: probable cause. Refuse to show ID and, that can earn you a trip to jail. Do you really wanna push your luck? I ain't that stupid cause I DON'T wanna feel the bracelets.

Probable Cause is actually a rather high standard. Probably need evidence or a witness. If an officer detains someone they can demand ID. But then again they have made an arrest and the false arrest statutes are now in play.

The basic attorney advice is always the same. Refuse to answer any questions. There is nothing you can ever say to a Police Officer that helps you. One of the unpleasant facts of life. And never agree to anything. If they have the authority they will take it...but don't help. If you do then it becomes voluntary.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by Annie1004

I have lived in California my entire long life, and have never witnessed a crime nor testified as a witness or reported a crime. I lump this excuse with the "separating families" outcry. A myth.

It's a myth that people report crimes? or it's an "excuse" hmm..ok Well if you spent a few minutes on Google you might find otherwise but to save you the trouble I picked a comment from Tulsa PD, and Oklahoma is about as red a state as you will find so make what you like out of their comments on this issue:

Tulsa police: Immigrants less likely to report crimes against them for fear of deportation | FOX23