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Maybe I should have posted in a different thread as I don't think basing any new CIR solely on compassion is the right thing to do. Rather, I stated that basing it on reason and consideration of our past and what has and has not worked should be our bedrock.
I also place much of the culpability with our current immigration problems with Mexico as well as American big business and a complicit American government. I agree with you there, and you'll see it in my earlier "bite sized history" post. As I said before, Mexico is a corrupt, radically stratified country, more so than here.
IRCA was a failure, I have stated that many times. That's why a new CIR, filling in the gaps left by IRCA, is necessary. It can be done.
Any CIR must address those already here. Aside from certain sporting events, where everyone's pride gets swelled, those undocumented immigrants here I would say are not hardcore Mexican or wherever patriots. Of course you will find people who wave foreign flags around. I usually find that these people are ones who were actually born here. Many illegal immigrants have a rather ambivalent attitude towards patriotism and a lot actually do appreciate this country for more than its opportunities. Again, one can't judge these people in such harsh terms. And, of course, they are literate. They are not college graduates, but they are definitely literate.
Location: The City of Angels, halfway between St. Augustine's cities.
9 posts, read 11,532 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele
If you can't see the flaws in allowing lawbreakers to be rewarded (yet again!) with a pathway to citizenship, then we might as well end this discussion now because we will most definitely never find common ground.
I guess we will never find common ground on that issue, so maybe it should end here. But I will say that an illegal immigrant coming here for work is not comparable to what I would call a real, hardcore criminal.
Yes, they broke our laws but so do drivers who speed and people who litter. I'm not saying that illegal immigration is as mundane as those acts, but in all honesty it is closer to them than to things like murder, bank robbery or arson.
With all this commotion and from what we've seen we must examine these laws in all aspects to see if they are working. Blanket punitive-only immigration law does not work. A blanket law for something like murder or rape does.
A CIR bill would not reward them. The payment of any back taxes owed
along with other penalties and fines is supposed to be the punishment. I'm willing to discuss if it should be harsher, but legalization should be part of the answer.
Maybe I should have posted in a different thread as I don't think basing any new CIR solely on compassion is the right thing to do. Rather, I stated that basing it on reason and consideration of our past and what has and has not worked should be our bedrock.
I also place much of the culpability with our current immigration problems with Mexico as well as American big business and a complicit American government. I agree with you there, and you'll see it in my earlier "bite sized history" post. As I said before, Mexico is a corrupt, radically stratified country, more so than here.
IRCA was a failure, I have stated that many times. That's why a new CIR, filling in the gaps left by IRCA, is necessary. It can be done.
Any CIR must address those already here. Aside from certain sporting events, where everyone's pride gets swelled, those undocumented immigrants here I would say are not hardcore Mexican or wherever patriots. Of course you will find people who wave foreign flags around. I usually find that these people are ones who were actually born here. Many illegal immigrants have a rather ambivalent attitude towards patriotism and a lot actually do appreciate this country for more than its opportunities. Again, one can't judge these people in such harsh terms. And, of course, they are literate. They are not college graduates, but they are definitely literate.
Giving amnesty does not work to solve the problem. And rewarding criminal behavior does not work to solve the problem.
In reality, many illegals first packed their bags with the intention of returning home to Mexico at some point. Many meant to work a couple seasons, get over some financial hurdle but found it very very easy to just stay on. Many Mexican illegals still have some vague notion that they might like to return home someday.
There's no good reason at all to try to dissuade them from that. At the least just leave them illegal. They made that choice to come here illegally and so they can remain in that status. If they should want to change that, as long as they've not been caught committing any other crimes, they have the choice to return home and start over the right way. They do not deserve some kind of preference over others that are doing just that.
1. Clarify the Fourteenth Amendment. It was ratified to give citizenship to the children of slaves, not foreign nationals. No tempting birthright American citizenship, less pregnant foreign nationals of EVERY ethnicity coming into America in order to give birth to an American citizen.
2. Heavily fine and imprison all employers found to have illegal aliens in their employ.
3. No more benefits for illegal aliens. No citizenship--no WIC, no Medicare, no food stamps, no Section 8 housing, no medical care unless a life threatening emergency is in progress. No more freebies at the expense of American taxpayers--no more impetus to come to the U.S. illegally to live at the expense of hard-working citizens.
4. Legal residency must be proven before bank accounts can be opened and/or homes can be purchased or rented.
5. In this computer generation, it is ridiculous to believe that identity theft by Social Security number cannot be tracked. Hold accountable the thieves stealing American identities in order to work illegally in this country.
Exactly. Don't do much of anything - just cut off the welfare and freebies and watch the mass exodus and see immigration wean down to a trickle.
It would be better for Mexico, it would help build stability to have as many of these people return home as possible.
The massive migration of people out has not brought about anything good. It has brought about much instability. Massive migration results from social injustice and instability but massive migration only leads to more social injustice and instability.
It's time this be stopped. Mexicans need to stay in Mexico and start working to make positive change there. They need to build their home towns, they need to stay home and raise their children because children need their parents in the home raising them far more than they need a monthly remittance check.
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 19,493,864 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuxEtoiles
I guess we will never find common ground on that issue, so maybe it should end here. But I will say that an illegal immigrant coming here for work is not comparable to what I would call a real, hardcore criminal.
Quote:
Yes, they broke our laws but so do drivers who speed
and people who litter. I'm not saying that illegal immigration is as mundane as those acts, but in all honesty it is closer to them than to things like murder, bank robbery or arson.
With all this commotion and from what we've seen we must examine these laws in all aspects to see if they are working. Blanket punitive-only immigration law does not work. A blanket law for something like murder or rape does.
A CIR bill would not reward them. The payment of any back taxes owed
along with other penalties and fines is supposed to be the punishment. I'm willing to discuss if it should be harsher, but legalization should be part of the answer.
The drivers your refering to most likely have a license to drive and are in this country Legally.
All of you sympathizers intentionally ignore that consideration. It really makes you look stupid.
Your not effected by Illegal Immigration so you actually have no say about how the ones that are effected feel about it.
Just another troll trying to start an argument by making all the Illegals out to be exceptions to the rule.
If your going to play on the part of the Illegals, then why don't you go join La Raza. Because your an insult to our American Patriotism.
Other wise stop sounding like an "Illegal Lover".
Every crime an Illegal comitts is something that could have been prevented, by not being here in the first place.
I guess we will never find common ground on that issue, so maybe it should end here. But I will say that an illegal immigrant coming here for work is not comparable to what I would call a real, hardcore criminal.
Yes, they broke our laws but so do drivers who speed and people who litter. I'm not saying that illegal immigration is as mundane as those acts, but in all honesty it is closer to them than to things like murder, bank robbery or arson.
With all this commotion and from what we've seen we must examine these laws in all aspects to see if they are working. Blanket punitive-only immigration law does not work. A blanket law for something like murder or rape does.
A CIR bill would not reward them. The payment of any back taxes owed
along with other penalties and fines is supposed to be the punishment. I'm willing to discuss if it should be harsher, but legalization should be part of the answer.
Pray tell, just how many gradients of lawlessness are you willing to accept?
If I, as an American citizen, break a law in this country, then I had better be willing to accept the consequences, no matter how "mundane" I deem that law to be. What I certainly WILL NOT receive, is some sort of compensatory action from the government for breaking that law.
Setting an amount of back taxes to be paid, along with a fine with the REWARD of American citizenship on the other side of the deal simply encourages more people to flaunt the law in order to receive the same deal. Many of these people paid coyotes thousands of dollars to get to the U.S. Handing them citizenship on a silver platter for a few thousand more isn't going to discourage people from breaking the law--it will simply bring in more people looking to cut the same deal.
There can be no compensation for lawbreakers. Go home and get in line behind those who respect this country and her laws by emigrating LEGALLY. Rewards for lawbreaking illegal aliens is a kick in the teeth to every person who ever came to this country legally.
Legal immigrants I welcome with open arms. The rest need to leave.
I guess we will never find common ground on that issue, so maybe it should end here. But I will say that an illegal immigrant coming here for work is not comparable to what I would call a real, hardcore criminal.
Yes, they broke our laws but so do drivers who speed and people who litter. I'm not saying that illegal immigration is as mundane as those acts, but in all honesty it is closer to them than to things like murder, bank robbery or arson.
With all this commotion and from what we've seen we must examine these laws in all aspects to see if they are working. Blanket punitive-only immigration law does not work. A blanket law for something like murder or rape does.
A CIR bill would not reward them. The payment of any back taxes owed
along with other penalties and fines is supposed to be the punishment. I'm willing to discuss if it should be harsher, but legalization should be part of the answer.
Let 's see now:
Being caught a second time here illegal is a Felony
Using fraudulent ID is a Felony
Not reporting cash earnings; at least above a certain amount is a Felony for both legals and illegals---------but, couple that crime with being illegal and I suspect the penalties go up.
Bottom line: I am safely say that most illegals age 18+ can be found guilty of assorted Felonies-------------none of which would apply to US citizens/green card holders.
Again: make it a living hell here (within the law) for illegals--------------no matter their race/ethnicity.
Final point: with our deepening recession--------------America for US citizens/green card holders-------------illegals need not apply unless they wish to be held in detainment camps a la Australia prior to (probable) deportation.
I used to be strictly anti-illegal immigration, even wanted to kick them all out of the country, put them in jail, separate and tear families apart, etc. But after really evaluating the situation on a variety of fronts, including economical, religious, socially, morally, etc, I have come to the conclusion that the solution to the problem does not lie on either spectrum (complete pro or complete anti), rather it lies in the middle.
The biggest obstacle to overcome in my opinion is assimilation. Before we allow anyone to permanently live in our country, assimilation is a must factor. Anyone wanting to live in this nation MUST learn English, no if's and's or but's. Anyone wanting to work, pay taxes, or communicate with anyone outside their own home needs to have some basic understandings of our language. It may not be the official language of the land, but it is the de facto language of the land and must be respected. Much of the animosity towards those of Hispanic origins who are illegal is their lack of communication abilities with the rest of us.
Also, when allowing these people to live here permanently, they must have no criminal background whatsoever with the exception of them living here illegally.
Now, many of you are going to dislike what I am saying here, however it is very inhumane, and very anti-American to just deport millions of people and ruin their lives. No, it is not fair that they are here. No, they do not have a right to be here. But the fact of the matter is that most of these people are hard workers who are just trying to escape a life that did not treat them very well to a life that is better for them and their families. It is time to show a little compassion, but be very firm. We want these people to succeed and live decent lives, but they must follow our laws, pay our taxes, speak our language, and become accustomed to our culture. To do anything otherwise would (and is) creating a situation similar to that in Quebec where a portion of the population wants nothing to do with the rest of the country. This is not good for our future or the health of this country. These people are also a drain on many of our resources as of current.
Much more could be added to any plan, but to completely kick them out of the country is a very illogical decision in my humble opinion.
but while they are making it better for themselves, they are draining and bleeding
middle Americans dry!
Get out... go home... and do what all other LAW ABIDING LEGAL immigrants did..
stop putting the cart before the mule!
NO EXCEPTIONS... you come illegally... your a criminal and should be treated as such!
Location: The City of Angels, halfway between St. Augustine's cities.
9 posts, read 11,532 times
Reputation: 11
This will be my last post here. I have much better things to do, like proactively advocate for immigration reform, than waste my time trying to have a civil debate on this online message board, where people can hide behind their screen names and posters are reduced to faceless ideologies.
mkfarnam, you completely missed the point on my drivers licenses analogy. I was referring to the intensity of the crime, not whether the criminal is here legally or not. Murder, rape and theft are committed by citizens, legal residents and illegal immigrants alike. The twelve million illegal immigrants here are less likely, due to their numbers and their prime focus--work--to commit heinous acts than the two previous categories. And gradients of illegallity do exist. That is why American law, and indeed virtually every other legal system on Earth, has the principle of "the punishment must fit the crime." Not all crimes are equal, or else we would be would have equal punishment for everyone from murderer to litterer, to undocumented immigrant to purgerer.
Also, don't you dare question my motivations and patriotism. My intention was not to start arguments. I am not a troll; I have a brain. Refer to my original post on, I believe, page 4. I have seen the postings of people who come to start arguments, people who do not think and defer to their emotions with one-liners or insult-laden, misspelled garbage, and I am not one of those people.
My ideas are what is best for this country. If I did not believe that, I would not hold these beliefs. Illegal immigration is wrong. But what would be worse for our country is doing nothing and letting the problem grow. Comprehensive immigration reform, earned legalization taking into account illegal entry, along with improvements on the flaws in IRCA, makes the most sense and is the best thing for our country right now. Deporting twelve million people, forcibly or through attrition as some think is the answer, will not work. True patriots refuse to let their judgement be clouded by "La Raza" or "invasion" or "cockroach" rhetoric and will decide for or against any CIR on their own, examing ALL of the facts, without such emotional and quite frankly hateful diatribe.
In any case, some form of legalization, piecemeal or whole, will become law no matter who becomes the next President. Both Obama and McCain support it, and it has bipartisan support, as well as opposition. It will not be put off for another eight years. I can only hope you will examine both sides of this argument and judge for yourself whether it is right or wrong to do.
Regards,
AuxEtoiles
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