Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Do you know any muslims personally... because im friends with and work with a lot of indian and pakistani muslims, and they all had the same reaction to that event as I did. (anger and disgust)
so where you conclude that "a large number" felt this way is beyond my comprehension.
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.
There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.
I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.
Individual Muslims include many fine, wonderful people...but, just like in the 'Deep South', while I like many of them, I do not trust their 'system'. And whether you agree or not, and whether my friends or yours disapprove, there's AMPLE evidence that the 'Fort Hood shooter' did what he did, out of religious convictions.....and somehow, the 'good' Muslims were unable to disassociate their religion from such people. Muslims as a world-wide organization have not yet 'secularized' to the point of being able to distance their politics from their religion. Assimilating into Western societies may help do this....but apparently the 'Fort Hood shooter' was still conflicted.
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.
There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.
I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.
Individual Muslims include many fine, wonderful people...but, just like in the 'Deep South', while I like many of them, I do not trust their 'system'. And whether you agree or not, and whether my friends or yours disapprove, there's AMPLE evidence that the 'Fort Hood shooter' did what he did, out of religious convictions.....and somehow, the 'good' Muslims were unable to disassociate their religion from such people. Muslims as a world-wide organization have not yet 'secularized' to the point of being able to distance their politics from their religion. Assimilating into Western societies may help do this....but apparently the 'Fort Hood shooter' was still conflicted.
I know a few Muslims, yes....all nice people. I have no doubt your friends are nice people, too. Nevetheless, I do not think Islam, as a system, is compatible to peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. Islamic societies are FAR too theocratic (even secular ones) for 'getting along with others', and I do not believe you can be a true, believing, "good" Muslim, and at the same time, exist peacefully in a secular society with 'infidels'. Either one role, or the other must take precedence.
and what do you base this from... muslims, christians and jews lived in peace for centuries.. this includes the years of breakthroughs and advances in mathematics, chemistry, astronomy and philosophy(by both arab and jewish scientists), all occurring while europe was in the midst of the dark ages. in palestine jews and muslims had no problems coexisting until the zionists began their takeover.
to deny that islam has also segregated and persecuted people would be foolish however; as would be the case to deny the same for catholicism/christianity. or would you say there is a difference in the forced conversions of millions of natives to christianity? if not, would you say christianity as a system also doesn't work? after all, there are just as many if not more examples of people doing horrific things in the name of christianity. much like in Christians, Muslims as a whole do not agree on the interpretation of their holy book. so while you have those who are fundamentalists, there are more moderate practitioners of the religion. to say that one is "less good" than the other based on their interpretation is an unfair assessment to make, especially if you don't know much about their religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
There may be many fine Muslim Americans who are assimilated into secular society, but they've done so by putting to rest some of the harsher precepts of Islam, not by embracing them.
and you think this makes them "bad" muslims, because they don't accept 100% of what their religion states? i think it makes them rational. or "moderate" like the term used to describe non fundamentalist christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
I have no doubt that there were "good" Germans during World War II, despite what their society did to the Jews. There are many "good" white Southerners, too. Yet for over a century, these "good" white Southerners seemed unwilling, or unable, to control the Ku Klux Klan in their midst...and to this day, "the South" suffers from a racist, hostile, backward image. This is slowly changing, but there are still MANY black people, Catholics, and Jews, who don't feel QUITE at ease in the remoter parts of the South. It STILL suffers from its hostile image. So does Islam...for some reason, the "good" Muslims are unwilling...or unable..or are too intimidated..to convincingly "out" the killers and 'wackos' in their midst.
the nazis and the klan are bad analogies. for starters, nazism took over an entire country. if you went against the nazis, you were killed. or do you think you would've taken it upon yourself to stand up to them? the south was the same, on a smaller scale. there are not many Muslims in the United States (about 0.8% of the population), and i dont understand why the continued insistence that people physically SEE them coming out to condemn such acts every time something is done in the name of islam. common sense would dictate that rational, sane people would be against killing people. And because that fool did it "for islam" or because of islam, doesn't mean the message of that faith is to go out and kill innocent men and women. Just as the crusades were not representative of the message of Christianity. but since you want to see muslims denouncing that fort hood piece of garbage, here are a few examples
a google search will yield more results. and yes, more muslims denounced this and similar acts than those who for lack of a better word were "happy" to see them take place (though i did not see anybody cosigning it). id say, the overwhelming majority belongs to the former group than the latter.
I suppose you COULD say, if you wanted to, that "Adolf Hitler was a VERY nasty man, who did VERY nasty things, to a WHOLE bunch of people...but none of this reflected anything about the way he felt about Jews; he was just an all-around jerk". However, I don't think such a statement would convince many people...
Thanks for your input, in any case.
That's not even the same parallel. Muslims are not inherently anti-American. Hitler was raised Christian (though later he believed that Eastern religions provided more sustenance). Does that mean that Christians and those that like Eastern religions want to kill Jews? Of course not. Your premise, as usual, is pretty flawed.
The Fort Hood killer shouldn't be the face of American Muslims...Just as Hitler shouldn't be the face of Christianity.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
