Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
<<Strange. The 14th Amendment never mentions "parents" or "allegiance" once.>>
It mentions the 'children of' various groups instead. Senator Jacob Howard, one of the authors of the 14th Ammnedment, on clarifying the intent said, "This does not of course include (among others) the children of aliens."
its a good thing that his opinion didn't matter; otherwise the Amendment would make such a statement outright; the other amendments are quite clear on who they affect, so if the Amendment writers wanted to not have children of aliens, then they would have quantified that (during the drafting of the 14th Amendment, immigrants, whether here legally or illegally were just known as aliens)
The 14th Amendment is clear on who is a citizen and how one becomes a citizen; All those who are born or naturalized
What do you mean by "any energy on the anchor baby issue"?
Clarify, please.
I don't have strong opinions one way or the other on whether "anchor babies" should be citizens. If people feel strongly on the issue, then they have recourse to change it; a Constitutional Amendment.
But I have very strong opinions on the Constitution, having taken an oath to "preserve and defend" it. And since under the current Constitution, "anchor babies" are natural born American citizens, that is what I am oath bound to "preserve and defend."
I don't have strong opinions one way or the other on whether "anchor babies" should be citizens. If people feel strongly on the issue, then they have recourse to change it; a Constitutional Amendment.
But I have very strong opinions on the Constitution, having taken an oath to "preserve and defend" it. And since under the current Constitution, "anchor babies" are natural born American citizens, that is what I am oath bound to "preserve and defend."
I can't imagine any American being ok with with babies born from illegal parents being made instant citizens. But to each his own, I guess.
It isn't the Constitution or its amendments that are inherently wrong. It is the "intepretation" of the birthright citizenship amendment that is wrong. Everything points to that is not what the writer's of this amendment intended.
This line alone "AND subject to" is pretty clear since illegals are not subject to our full jurisdiction. One of the writers of the amendment was implicent about children born from aliens not being citizens of this country by birth.
The Supreme Court really screwed up on this one and we have become so PC that they don't want to address it. Now we have a couple more judges who are very liberal so it is going to be an uphill battle to get it changed.
I can't imagine any American being ok with with babies born from illegal parents being made instant citizens. But to each his own, I guess.
Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the imagination of the American people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
It isn't the Constitution or its amendments that are inherently wrong. It is the "intepretation" of the birthright citizenship amendment that is wrong. Everything points to that is not what the writer's of this amendment intended.
Well, I honestly have to admit that the authors of the 14th Amendment were not the same perspicacious brain trust as the folks who wrote the original Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But I think it's also safe to say that the horror felt by the reactionary South at what they did intend by the 14th Amendment was far worse than those who hate the idea of birthright citizenship today. After all... in the 19th Century people wore their racism on their sleeves. Today it's considered impolite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
This line alone "AND subject to" is pretty clear since illegals are not subject to our full jurisdiction.
Ahhh... but there you are completely wrong. Everybody who is here, even just a Dutch tourist passing through, is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Certainly you don't imagine that somebody from Amsterdam could come to the States and light up a massive splieff in a Dallas Police Station and argue he is immune from arrest because, as an alien, he is not "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."
I mean seriously... if you don't consider illegal aliens to be under the jurisdiction of the US... how would you propose we deport them?
The meaning of the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction of" was well defined and understood at the time, as evidenced by the comprehensive discussion by the Supreme Court in the decision in Wong Kim Ark. Here's what they said:
Quote:
The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
One of the writers of the amendment was implicent about children born from aliens not being citizens of this country by birth.
If you mean Bingham, so what? He had nothing to do with the citizenship clause. If you mean Howard, you are misreading his words quite badly. He actually believed the same thing described in the Wong Kim Ark decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
The Supreme Court really screwed up on this one and we have become so PC that they don't want to address it. Now we have a couple more judges who are very liberal so it is going to be an uphill battle to get it changed.
Again... your problem is not with judges. The Supreme Court doesn't propose Amendments to the Constitution. Congress does.
Originally Posted by chicagonut I can't imagine any American being ok with with babies born from illegal parents being made instant citizens. But to each his own, I guess.
"Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the imagination of the American people"
Originally Posted by chicagonut It isn't the Constitution or its amendments that are inherently wrong. It is the "intepretation" of the birthright citizenship amendment that is wrong. Everything points to that is not what the writer's of this amendment intended.
"Well, I honestly have to admit that the authors of the 14th Amendment were not the same perspicacious brain trust as the folks who wrote the original Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But I think it's also safe to say that the horror felt by the reactionary South at what they did intend by the 14th Amendment was far worse than those who hate the idea of birthright citizenship today. After all... in the 19th Century people wore their racism on their sleeves. Today it's considered impolite".
Really? Do tell? You knew the writer's of the 14th personally? What has racism to do with birthright citizenship? Then or now? Most countries have changed to their birthright citizenship to require that at least one parent be a citizen. Considering the scams of illegals coming here to give birth on our soil for that purpose it is long overdue for us to do the same.
Politeness aka Political Correction will be the downfall of our nation. Time to stop that nonsense also.
Originally Posted by chicagonut I can't imagine any American being ok with with babies born from illegal parents being made instant citizens. But to each his own, I guess.
"Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the imagination of the American people"
You mean the idiocy of "some", don't you?
No. You didn't use "idiocy" in your original comment, so that response would be stupid.
Really? Do tell? You knew the writer's of the 14th personally?
I know as much about them as I do the original Framers. And John Bingham was certainly no James Madison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
What has racism to do with birthright citizenship? Then or now?
Is that a serious question?
Have you actually not heard of the Civil War? Of slavery? Are you honestly unaware of the reasons for the 14th Amendment?
I mean... if you are that desperately in need of some instruction, I'm happy to help. But please, reassure me that your questions are rhetorical and so then salvage some modicum of credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
Most countries have changed to their birthright citizenship to require that at least one parent be a citizen. Considering the scams of illegals coming here to give birth on our soil for that purpose it is long overdue for us to do the same.
As I've said several times... if you feel that way, then go for it. Try to change the Constitution.
I on the other hand must be some sort of sucker because unlike you I actually bought off on the concept of "American exceptionalism." I've always been proud to be an American, and considered ourselves to be unique among nations in our values and our virtues. I do not look around and say, "Hmmmm, what foriegn country do I want to be like, because we are so ****ed up."
I have always thought that the United States was the nation that other countries should want to be like.
But you do not seem to feel that way. As you said in an earlier post, to each his own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut
Politeness aka Political Correction will be the downfall of our nation. Time to stop that nonsense also.
So... you want to make some sort of confession here, or what? What is it that you are dying to say that you are instead holding back out of "political correctness?"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
