What do you think about Right to Work? (Greensburg: insurance, employment)

[jman07]

I don't understand why you pro-union folks have to spread so much propaganda about wages. The wages are not that much different between union and non-union shops. Toyota and Ford have very similar wages, and both have health insurance, pensions, etc. If non-union companies were as greedy as some make them out to be, they would be getting paid minimum wage with NO benefits, but thats not the case. The biggest savings come from the companies being able to get rid of LAZY workers, being able to pay workers according to their output, not how long they've been with the company. What incentive do you have to work hard if you will get a raise no matter what????? Savings come from all sorts of other ways that aren't reported in headlines. And example is being able to use temporary workers during busy times. Non-union companies get to "try before they buy" workers, so they can truly get the best workers who want to be there, and MORE workers get a chance to prove themselves. The UAW also had something called "job banks". This is where if a worker gets laid off, they still get full pay and benefits.

I will be fair and say that unionized construction is a different animal than manufacturing and public workers. Lazy Union construction workers aren't nearly as protected as other sectors. If they don't produce, they get laid off with no problem. Especially with the way the economy is today.

[jman07]

Originally Posted by fallingwater

Union jobs have been on a steady decline for years. So has the middle class. It amazes me that many don't seem to connect the dots. With only 10% of Hoosiers belonging to a union, this decline should have increased jobs if the argument is that unions are keeping businesses away. Union members are not disillusioned on what unions do for them, who is disillusioned are those that do not belong to unions. If one feels so strongly about not joining a union, then don't. There sure are plenty of employers out there that are not part of one. Crushing unions has nothing to do with economy. It has to do with politics and greed. Businesses don't want to establish themselves in the U.S. unless they get backing that people should take what is offered, end of story. If americans don't like it, well more money can be had in other countries where there are not as much restrictions on the welfare of workers. Ask Newt, school children can clean the school after the class. Who needs those high paid janitors. Unions are not killing this country people, greed is.

Unions are on the decline because the Unions are forcing the unionized industries overseas. DUH!

ALso, I went to a catholic school with no AC and limited resources. We all had to help clean the school, work in the cafeteria, etc.. We didn't cry like little babies about it. You learn something called work ethic and responsibility from it. And since everyone wants to turn it into a racial issue, I will point out that we were all Caucasian students. If we weren't it would have been called racist. And yes, this is coming from someone who had to "clean the school after class." Have you ever had to?????

[fallingwater]

Originally Posted by jman07

Unions are on the decline because the Unions are forcing the unionized industries overseas. DUH!

ALso, I went to a catholic school with no AC and limited resources. We all had to help clean the school, work in the cafeteria, etc.. We didn't cry like little babies about it. You learn something called work ethic and responsibility from it. And since everyone wants to turn it into a racial issue, I will point out that we were all Caucasian students. If we weren't it would have been called racist. And yes, this is coming from someone who had to "clean the school after class." Have you ever had to?????

Most union members are from the public sectors such as teachers and police officers, not manufacturing. Even then it only makes up approximately 36% of the work force in general.

I never mentioned race.

Putting my own supplies away after class. Yes. Taking over a janitor's job? No. I'm sure sweatshop owners feel they are providing a good service to children as well.

[fallingwater]

Originally Posted by jman07

I don't understand why you pro-union folks have to spread so much propaganda about wages. The wages are not that much different between union and non-union shops. Toyota and Ford have very similar wages, and both have health insurance, pensions, etc. If non-union companies were as greedy as some make them out to be, they would be getting paid minimum wage with NO benefits, but thats not the case. The biggest savings come from the companies being able to get rid of LAZY workers, being able to pay workers according to their output, not how long they've been with the company. What incentive do you have to work hard if you will get a raise no matter what????? Savings come from all sorts of other ways that aren't reported in headlines. And example is being able to use temporary workers during busy times. Non-union companies get to "try before they buy" workers, so they can truly get the best workers who want to be there, and MORE workers get a chance to prove themselves. The UAW also had something called "job banks". This is where if a worker gets laid off, they still get full pay and benefits.

I will be fair and say that unionized construction is a different animal than manufacturing and public workers. Lazy Union construction workers aren't nearly as protected as other sectors. If they don't produce, they get laid off with no problem. Especially with the way the economy is today.

My husband is union. In his last contract he did not get a raise. The company wanted to lay off a good portion of a skilled trades dept to hire contractors. Not employees. The union suggested they strike. The members of union said no, they would forgo a raise to keep jobs. Not sure how that's sticking it to the company especially when this company has had record profits. This company deals directly with the U.S. military. The company was considering contractors anyway. The military found out what was going on and threatened to end the contract. The military didn't want just anyone aka contractors with limited experience building their equipment, along with a major airline manufacturer (which is union by the way) also did not want contractors coming in. Think about that next time you fly. You want a contractor with limited experience and whom doesn't care about the product building the parts? I think that is the misconception that unions are just for wages. Its also about skill levels as well. Are some union employees lazy? Sure but I have never personally worked a union job in my life and I have worked with my fair share of non union employees that are lazy especially higher level management that earn large bonuses for showing up.

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by domergurl

who was holding the payroll tax cut hostage in DC?

Because SS is funded by the Payroll tax since it was created.
FDRs original SS is fine but over the decades politicians have screwed with SS so much by shoving it in the general budget for example.
SS should be removed from the general budget it should be its own funded entity it shouldn't be allowed to be touched by politicians.
SS will be going bankrupt if we don't restore it and everyone loses there.

[hindsight2020]

Americans, particularly those in the center of the Country, have always had this fascination with supporting political entities that lobby against the economic self-interest of the very people supporting them, under the auspices that "if I agree with my boss, I can one day be in his shoes". Only in America....Right to work, for peanuts... yep,sound about right. This will all come to a head in 20 years when the preponderance of people attempting to retire are not of the Boomer flavor and that discourse [retirement] is not monopolized by boomers who largely escaped the bullet as a generation. Then these new workers will start cryin' uncle and broken social contracts, little too late. It all comes to a head folks.....

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by hindsight2020

Americans, particularly those in the center of the Country, have always had this fascination with supporting political entities that lobby against the economic self-interest of the very people supporting them, under the auspices that "if I agree with my boss, I can one day be in his shoes". Only in America....Right to work, for peanuts... yep,sound about right. This will all come to a head in 20 years when the preponderance of people attempting to retire are not of the Boomer flavor and that discourse [retirement] is not monopolized by boomers who largely escaped the bullet as a generation. Then these new workers will start cryin' uncle and broken social contracts, little too late. It all comes to a head folks.....

lol Chicago is a good example of this.
Corruption and ignorance dropped Chicagos record population of 3.6M in 1950 to 2.7M in 2010 and its contiuning to decline.
Why people can't learn from others mistakes *Detroit* is beyond my understanding.

[Gunluvver2]

Originally Posted by fallingwater

50 dollars an hour. Really. And...where exactly did you get your information from? Fox news? The wage cut was from $29 to $14.65. Not $50 to $25.

I suspect that $50/hour number was the hourly wage plus the cost of things like: health insurance, workmens comp, unemployment insurance, Social Security matches, etc. Your pay stub doesn't list all of these other expenses that your boss pays out of his pocket. You benefit from all of these but the BOSS pays.

GL2

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by Gunluvver2

I suspect that $50/hour number was the hourly wage plus the cost of things like: health insurance, workmens comp, unemployment insurance, Social Security matches, etc. Your pay stub doesn't list all of these other expenses that your boss pays out of his pocket. You benefit from all of these but the BOSS pays.

GL2

Yes exactly.
the Automotive industry was on the decline for so long cause Unions asked so much out of GM/Ford and chrysler and out come the foreign non unionized carmakers and right away they have a cost advantage and a lower price advantage.

[Toxic Toast]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

the Automotive industry was on the decline for so long cause Unions asked so much out of GM/Ford

Hold the phone.

I know more than a few union folks who have made concession after concession because GM was performing so poorly. The unions are not bringing GM to its knees; bad management and poor products have done that. Ford did not take any bailout money, and is doing just fine.