Florida Coastal School of Law...should I go? (Jacksonville, University: sales, loans)

[kmoon327]

BTW you may also want to check out our bar passage rate and our employment rates - both very high, we'll see how it goes this year with the economy, but I am hopeful.

[kmoon327]

I know this is long, but it was forwarded to me when I first started, and had me laughing so hard I was crying - it's a great read!! (I tried to clean it up a bit..)

Doxie Goes To Law School

A Cautionary Tale!

People always ask me if I hated law school. And I never know what to say to this question. Honestly, I am not really sure how I felt about law school. I did have a good time, and I met a lot of great people; I also worked my a*s the hell off of my body, and often went without sleeping for literally days at a time. I ended and began some of the most important relationships of my life during law school. I also clocked over seven million hours perfecting my game of Minesweeper, and consumed enough wine to fund the college educations of every man, woman and child in all of Napa Valley.

"Law school is f**ked up," I usually say. And that is certainly true.

The worst part of law school (besides the Socratic method, which...I hate you, Socrates. I truly do) is the lack of sleep. I missed out on an enormous amount of sleep while I was in law school, though a lot of that was my own fault, because unfortunately I am just one of those obnoxious people who has to get her grubby little hands all over everything. That is how I ended up competing on our moot court team while also writing my law review note in my second year. It is also how, in my third year, I ended up working 20 hours a week at a pro bono law clinic, while also finishing classes, while ALSO being on the managing board of both my law journal AND the moot court board, AND serving as a student/faculty liaison for international law, PLUS this is when I started dating Dukay and ALSO had four dogs, and THAT was a fun time.

(Note to people not in law school: seriously, you guys. That is a lot of sh*t. Everyone who is/has been in law school just let out a little shriek and backed away from their computers in horror. They are scared of me now. They fear my spooky ability to multitask.)

Let me tell you what I learned about all of my extracurricular law school activities: they will not help you get a job. No, wait, I'm lying: okay, they help some, but they are not determinative. Don't kill yourself doing everything. Do not do what I have done, gentle readers. For I was an idiot.

Still, oddly enough, what I remember about law school is not suffering from paralyzing exhaustion, or miserably studying for civil procedure (which, wait, civil procedure is actually the worst part of all of law school, even worse than future interests and the rule against perpetuities), or trying to finish my note the same f**king night I had the rest of my moot court team over to finish our competition brief, which just happened to be due on the same exact day. All of these things have been blocked from my memory, probably due to an unhealthy combination of alcohol and delusion, and for this, I am absolutely not sorry.

What I do remember about law school is kind of a collage of things. I remember that I started law school fresh out of college in a desperate attempt to prolong the student experience by not becoming employed. I remember that back then, I was dating the boy I planned to marry, until law school so skewed my view of all things that I kicked him out of the house one morning at dawn, before then attending all of my classes for the day. I remember sitting at a bar downtown, holding the hands of a classmate I had never before spoken to, taking tandem tequila shots and crying to each other that law school is the F**KING STUPIDEST THING WE HAVE EVER DONE, OH MY GOD, I AM TOTALLY CALLING MY MOTHER.
Because, see, law school makes you insane. There are no exceptions. Soon you will be nuts.

And it comes on slowly at first; you'll be at a party with other first years (note: in my experience, "partying with other first years" will only occur immediately after you turn in your first major memo, because prior to that, you are all too terrified to Funk). Someone will fall over during a keg stand, or fall down a flight of stairs, or SOME accident will occur, and instead of calling the party foul, as would be appropriate in such an instance, one of your classmates will instead turn to the group and say, "That is a tort."

And you will AGREE. And you will LAUGH. Because it is TRUE.

Now. You have just passed an important milestone! At this point, your soul is dead. Sorry.

I mean, don't feel bad; it happens to everyone! I myself have stood in a party and announced that the unlocked liquor cabinet is an attractive nuisance. YOU WILL DO THIS. It is going to be okay.

But seriously. Your soul is gone. Hope you weren't using it. Oh, and also, all your non-law school friends? They hate you now. "Please do not talk about the law anymore," they are thinking. "Do you not see my looks of desperation? Have you no shame? HAVE YOU NO SOUL?"

Nope! You don't. But it's kind of a good thing, because the loss of your soul is the first step toward the Not Caring. The Not Caring is awesome. It has a tendency to manifest in the second year, but fail to take full effect until some time in third year, when you will proceed to sign up for all survey classes and something taught by a guy in a cowboy hat, and you stop (a) giving a ****, and (b) attending, and yet somehow you pull off the highest GPA of your legal career. You loooove the Not Caring.

In the first year, however, You Care. Oh, You Care Deeply. You live in terror of hearing your name called. You find yourself slouching low in your seat, praying for invisibility. You lie awake at night, wondering if you should really be sleeping when you still don't have your future interests straight.

"Oh, God in heaven," you will think, staring at the dark ceiling. "I have forgotten what a fee simple determinative is. Surely I do not deserve to live."

The Caring of the first year will make you crazy and unhappy. Which is why, at some point, you will have to just loosen the hell up. And in our case, we accomplished this through a series of games.

For example, I have very fond memories of playing As*hole Bingo. Current law students! Do you play As*hole Bingo? I bet y'all do, because there is some variation of this game everywhere, but here is our own recipe:
During the first year at many law schools, you have all of the same classes with all of the same people. So you spend all day going tromping from class to class in an annoying, sixty-person-wide clump. (Psst. Y'all is...."tromp" a word? I feel like it is. Whatever, it is now.)

You get to know all the other people in your section very, very quickly. There are things about those people that you learn extremely quickly. In our section, before the end of the first day, we already knew whose hand would shoot into the air whenever a professor asked a question. By the end of the first day, we already knew that there was a girl in the back who would forever condition her every response with, "Well, as a former CFO of a COMpany..." REGARDLESS of what was being asked. We recognized these people early. Our hatred was both immediate and all-consuming.

And this is where the brilliant notion of As*hole Bingo came in. Let's say you are taking five classes: torts, contracts, property, criminal, and civ pro. And say there are five horrid classmates that always, ALWAYS have to pipe up at inappropriate moments, or who feel the need to make some sort of self-congratulatory pronouncement every time they speak, or basically just irritate the **** out of you. Say you've got five of those.
Well, you make yourself a little bingo card. And you put those names down the left side of the grid, and your classes across the top. Everyone else playing will have different cards; you can put people and classes in whatever order you choose. Plus, your friends might think that different people are more obnoxious than the ones you've chosen. Whatever! As long as you've got five names and five classes, though, you are golden, and you are ready to play.

Now, in Non-As*hole Bingo, someone stands at the front of the room with a metal cage filled with little balls and calls out the numbers to rooms filled with senior citizens. "B-12," the ball-caller might say. "D-6." This is not how As*hole Bingo works.

In As*hole Bingo, you get to mark off spots when one of those people listed on your card does something obnoxious in a class that is also listed on your card. For example, let's say "Bob" acts like an as*hole in torts. Let's say "Bob" just can't wait for another student, who is struggling a little with her answer to the professor's question, to finish speaking, and so "Bob" lets out a pained sigh, raises his waving hand in front of the teacher's face, and announces, in an exasperated tone, "That is so OBviously gross negligence."

This means that you go to the spot on the grid where "Bob" and "Torts" come together, and now? You get to mark that spot. Good for you!

We had a group of ten people in our As*hole Bingo game, and every time someone would do something obnoxious in class, ten heads would immediately drop, as we scanned our cards to see whether we’d just made our bingo. I AM SURE WE WERE SO SUBTLE.

But we did not care. We were not f**king around with ******* Bingo, in part because there was money involved. At the beginning of the week, everyone playing As*hole Bingo put five bucks into the pot. Whoever made their bingo first – and traditional rules apply, so you have to make a vertical, horizontal, or diagonal line on your card – won the pot. BUT WE DID NOT MAKE THIS PART EASY.

Because you are required to actually announce your bingo. In class. Out loud.

I made my first Bingo when our classmate informed us, once again, that as the former CFO of a COMpany, she believed the property we were discussing was subject to eminent domain. And as soon as the words were out of her mouth, ten heads shot down to look at their bingo cards, and that is when I saw that the space for “Jane” and “Property” was now filled, and I had myself a real, honest-to-God, As*hole Bingo.

Which I then had to announce. I raised my hand.

“Miss Doxie?” the professor asked.

“I was just trying to figure this out last night, this eminent domain stuff?” I began. “And it wasn’t coming to me? But then, what you just said? Man, that did it, the way you just explained it, and I was like, bingo! I’ve got it now!”

Three different people cursed under their breath and threw their cards to the floor. The professor stared at me.

“So I just…wanted to say thanks!” I told him.

“You’re welcome,” he said. “May I continue?”

Several minutes later, class ended, and we were walking out when the professor came up behind us. “As*hole bingo?” he asked quietly. When we nodded, he rolled his eyes. “Please tell me it was that damned ‘CFO of a COMpany’ remark that won the game,” he whispered.

This taught us that we were not smooth. Apparently, ALL of the professors were very aware of our little passtime, and were filled with delight every time someone managed to pull off a bingo in their class. Over the year, bingo was called in numerous ways, but my favorite came from my friend Dan, who plaintively informed our contracts teacher that he'd "bingo-ing to the library looking for books about the UCC, but they were all checked out."

We had other games, too, including Word Of The Day. This involved a mass email every morning; the email contained one word that section members were encouraged to use in the event that they were called on to speak in class. Using the word earned you street cred and the respect of your classmates; failure to use the word resulted in public shaming. Some of the words chosen for this experiment included:
Pomp;
Obtuse;
Boil;
Castanets; and
Hemorrhoid.

This led to many fascinating answers.

"An interpleader action is like an STD," one brave classmate once offered, before losing the will to continue. Our ancient civ pro teacher just shook his head in disgust.

But as silly as they sound, the games served an important purpose. They reminded us that law school really isn't that bad. That you have to laugh at yourself, and that even the most terrifying contracts teacher cannot, in fact, kill you and grind your bones into a fine powder. It really is going to be okay. Really.

So...no. I didn't hate law school. It wasn't exactly a party in my pants every day, but we all survived. Everyone I knew graduated; everyone passed the bar, and is now doing what they want. It's not easy, but it's worth it, even if it costs you your soul. Sure, you'll be embarrassed at some point, but so will everyone else. You can't take it seriously, so you might as well embrace the embarrassment, announce that the contracts homework gave you a hemorrhoid, and call it a day.

[Ryde41]

That's hilarious! Rep. Points for the laugh!

[HoneyBeeMel]

Wow, kmoon, thank you so much! You have been extremely insightful and helpful! I'd say about everyone I've spoken to about Florida Coastal that ISN'T a student at the school, has something negative to say...about 90% of the time.
"It's a 4th tier"
"Their graduates can't get well paying jobs"
"It's for profit, so they only care about your money"
"They kick out an insane amount of students after 1L"...blah, blah, blah...

I just didn't know what to think! It's so helpful to hear from the student's, however, because you guys really know what's up! I had no idea they changed the grading curve! That was one of the things that really worried me, but to know they finally changed it makes me feel much better.
How are the job prospects? I'm interested in family law and maybe civil rights. Do you know people that have graduated and have jobs that make them happy?
I think I'm going to visit on Monday, April 6th...almost bought the tickets last night, but had to put it off for a couple more days...

[HoneyBeeMel]

And thank you for sharing that story! HAHA, it cracked me up! I'm going to save it, and read it again throughout my first year. :-)

[kmoon327]

I am pulling this from our Dean's email to the school not too long ago, after a very long email about all of our moot court success (which I can also post if you'd like) he goes on to say:

"Finally, some good news on the employment front for students. The Career Services Department has completed it survey of 2008 graduates and filed its report with the National Association for Law Placement. The data indicates that 95% of the graduates were employed. Of those employed, 97% were in positions that either gave preference to a JD or required a JD or were in a professional setting.

In addition, the average salary for all graduates was up nearly 15% and for those in private law firms it increased by nearly 20%. Great numbers---congratulations to the Class of 08. We do realize that the market is very difficult at this time and we are not going to be complacent. Our focus is now heavily on the Class of 09 and our goal is to have better results for this class."

So... I'd say that's good.

A lot of the things people tell you are mostly true. FCSL is a 4th tier school. If you want to practice in the New England area when you are done, you will have to fight with the graduates from much better/well known schools, not just in that area, but from all over, for those jobs, and you will probably lose. If you want to practice in or around Jax you will probably be in luck.

One of the great things about being right here in Jax is that you have more opportunities (outside of TLH which has a ton of political opps), Jax Area Legal Aid is right here and is always looking for volunteers, same with Three Rivers Legal - you will likely not get paid, but you will get experience.

Our family law clinic is awesome, you will do all the work, work with the judges, and just have a supervising attorney basically sitting in the back taking notes.

As for money, FCSL is wicked expensive, and I bet they make a KILLING. It is ridiculous. BUT if you are lucky enough to get a good scholarship and keep it, it's not so bad. Now that the curve has been raised it is not nearly as hard to keep it. Less likely to be kicked out because of that too. The curve they had was just a way for them to make more money - the students banded together and fought and we won. Even though they are a money making machine they are still very student centered, IMO. They listen, they take action, they will send you about a hundred emails a day about every single thing going on at school (this will annoy you to no end). They take various surveys throughout the year and they implement student suggestions all the time. Same with the end of the semester surveys about the quality of the professors - most law schools the professors pretty much have the run of things, from what I understand (from what my professors b**tch about) but here the students have way more input. If a professor gets enough bad surveys, they are going to hear about it. (trust me I've seen it).

I am here at FCSL strictly for location (not exactly the best reason to pick a law school mind you). I love jax, I plan to stay in jax, and I didn't want to go anywhere else, so maybe I took a huge risk according to the FCSL naysayers, but we'll see, I'm really not worried about it. I beleive another commenter said that a lot of our grads go on to open their own practice because they can't find a job - I think this might be true, but if they are successful, then good for them, that's my back up plan, and for a city this spread out, it doesn't hurt to have another lawyer open an office down the block from you.

April is a great time to visit. Make sure you tell them you are coming, they will give you a great tour, you can meet with all the Deans (a true open door policy), sit in on classes (stay away from con law - evidence would be fun to sit in on though). Also, drive around the southside/baymeadows area (this is where the school is at and a really great place to be in Jax) - you will see that it is full of young adults and because of that there are tons of apartment complexes, some nice some not so nice. A bunch of people choose to take the longer drive and live by the beach too. (I'd say factor in a 20-30 minute drive during heavy traffic times)

Another great thing I personally love is the large class sizes. This is supposed to be a huge downfall for students, but I consider it a huge asset. For one, I can count on not being called on if I don't make eye contact in most classes. Also, most every teacher I've had assigns days to 5-10 people so you know which day you are going to be called on - law school doesn't get much easier than that. Don't count on too much of that your first year though, it's pretty much after those basic classes that things start to get more laid back.

A friend of mine, with almost identical grades, just recently transferred to a top tier school with no troubles at all. She wasn't involved in hardly any extra activities, but I know she was a killer writer. She may be the exception, but still something that I think should be said.

Any more questions/any I didn't answer- feel free to shoot them at me, I am almost done with class for the day!

[904jax]

When evaluating responses, take a look at who is in the best position to know what.

1) FCSL students will know most about the school environment;

2) Long term JAX residents will know most about the city;

3) Attorneys who have made it out of law school and entered the job market will most likely know most about the long term impact of choosing a law school. I believe at least a couple have chimed in.

[nik9900]

Hey HoneyBeeMel! I was also recently accecpted to FCSL. I was so excited to get the letter (it was my first, and so far only one). However, I am so scared because of all the bad things people are saying about it. I too will have to move to JAX if I decide to go there. It will be a huge change and a big risk. I am glad to know that I am not the only one in this position. I also want to get into family or civil rights law. I am also into immigration law. I won't be able to visit the campus before I have to pay to reserve the seat so I will be waiting to see what you say after your visit. I would love to chat with you sometime more about this. It would be great to figure this out with someone else. Email me if you can sometime @ pdhm2002@yahoo.com

[GFNDGirl]

I am also trying to decide if I should attend Florida Coastal Law School I have been offered a good scholarship, the best of the five or six that have offered, and I am just trying to decide if it is worth the move... I am currently attending UND in Grand Forks, ND where I have been my entire life and I am sick of the administrative staff here (many here feel the same way) so even though it may cost me more to move and more than in-state tuition (crazy cheap under 4,000 a semester) I am leaning towards Florida. I have family (an aunt and uncle) who will be within driving distance and I am not too worried about culture shock because my mom's from the south, mainly I am jsut worried about the weather... that will be a HUGE change! It's April 6th and we still have over three feet of snow on the ground! From what I have been reading here it seems lots of luck/networking is involved in the whole job prospects thing, I have always been in the top percent of my classes (college and HS) and am hoping a scholarship from a fourth tier and being in the top of my class will mean more than graduating with tons of debt from somewhere else. I guess my biggest question right now is have any or how many graduates leave the Florida/South East region of the country to pass their bar in the midwest who have graduated from FCSL? I would like to come back to the midwest... and I know from living in GF ND my whole life that while yes UND would be a boost to get into the good ole' boys network that is around here, there are also quite a few people UND has rubbed the wrong way as well.... does anybody have any input at all as to major reasons not to move out of the state and head to a different area of the country? I have heard some employers do not like when you attend the same undergrad/professional level institution??? Is it worth what I am estimating to be about $15,000 extra in tuition(total for three years) to get out of ND and see the world?

[904jax]

If I were considering law school in Florida, I would look at University of Florida ("UF") or Florida State University, particularly if you have a good undergraduate GPA. Both of these schools will position you well in Florida and have strong reputations should you choose to return home.

If you want to practice in Jacksonville, which is a great city, UF is the way to go.

When evaluating FCSL, you should consider how many students retain scholarships in their second year. Ask FCSL to provide this data in writing. You should compare the costs with in-state tuition. Don't assume you'll have the scholarship in your second year.

Remember, the first year of law school is about studying and class (12 hours per day six days a week). You may not have much time to explore. Of course, getting to class is easier without all of the snow.

The best advice is go to the best school you can get into. If both schools are relatively equal, go to the most cost effective school.