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I can't speak for the Reform movement and whether their requirements for conversion vary from congregation to congregation, but I do know one Reform rabbi, a personal friend of mine, who would not take part in any conversion process that did not last a minimum of one year in length. Her reasoning is that the potential convert should experience an entire year of Jewish holy days at the very least.
I, too, feel that a conversion process of nine months is a bit rushed. But that is merely my opinion.
As a further note, please let us not use any offensive terms such as "gatekeeping" when members of this forum are merely expressing their opinions. No one here controls who is or who is not a Jew, or who may or may not participate on this forum. (Except for moderators, who regularly kick out antisemites and trolls whose hateful postings most of you never get the chance to see if we see them first.)
This forum is open and welcoming to all who have a genuine interest in Judaism and all things Jewish, regardless of one's level of observance (or non-observance).
I can't speak for the Reform movement and whether their requirements for conversion vary from congregation to congregation, but I do know one Reform rabbi, a personal friend of mine, who would not take part in any conversion process that did not last a minimum of one year in length. Her reasoning is that the potential convert should experience an entire year of Jewish holy days at the very least.
I, too, feel that a conversion process of nine months is a bit rushed. But that is merely my opinion.
As a further note, please let us not use any offensive terms such as "gatekeeping" when members of this forum are merely expressing their opinions. No one here controls who is or who is not a Jew, or who may or may not participate on this forum. (Except for moderators, who regularly kick out antisemites and trolls whose hateful postings most of you never get the chance to see if we see them first.)
This forum is open and welcoming to all who have a genuine interest in Judaism, regardless of one's level of observance.
Thank you.
I intended no disrespect to you or any other poster, and while you don’t need my permission to do so, you’re welcome to edit my post to remove the term if you’d like. I’ll be sure to avoid it in the future. That said, I see the word gatekeeping much like ultimatum. Some people automatically bristle at the word (and it does often carry a negative connotation), but some level of gatekeeping is necessary in many facets of life, just like how ultimatums are sometimes an appropriate way to set boundaries. I don’t support considering any random person to be Jewish just because they happen to say so (which is no less gatekeeping). It’s simply a question of balance, which is absolutely subjective and varies across Jewish denominations.
And with that, I shall forever refrain within this subforum from all words that rhyme with fate-reaping. (and I say that only in jest and intend no further disrespect).
Last edited by ElijahAstin; 11-03-2022 at 11:42 AM..
I intended no disrespect to you or any other poster, and while you don’t need my permission to do so, you’re welcome to edit my post to remove the term if you’d like. I’ll be sure to avoid it in the future. That said, I see the word gatekeeping much like ultimatum. Some people automatically bristle at the word (and it does often carry a negative connotation), but some level of gatekeeping is necessary in many facets of life, just like how ultimatums are sometimes an appropriate way to set boundaries. I don’t support considering any random person to be Jewish just because they happen to say so (which is no less gatekeeping). It’s simply a question of balance, which is absolutely subjective and varies across Jewish denominations.
And with that, I shall forever refrain within this subforum from all words that rhyme with fate-reaping. (and I say that only in jest and intend no further disrespect).
Vis-Ã -vis the "gatekeeping" issue, this commentary about the original Alma article from the Forward talks about "boundaries" and "guardrails".
"I believe that boundaries are important and that we need certain guardrails in order to maintain Jewish community and identity. Becoming Jewish is a big deal, and it should require significant investment, commitment and learning on the part of the person converting. There are serious rabbinic and legal issues surrounding conversion, and these issues are too challenging to distill in such a short piece. But the Alma piece — and the reactions to it — afford us an important opportunity to examine our expectations of people who convert to Judaism. "
Vis-Ã -vis the "gatekeeping" issue, this commentary about the original Alma article from the Forward talks about "boundaries" and "guardrails".
"I believe that boundaries are important and that we need certain guardrails in order to maintain Jewish community and identity. Becoming Jewish is a big deal, and it should require significant investment, commitment and learning on the part of the person converting. There are serious rabbinic and legal issues surrounding conversion, and these issues are too challenging to distill in such a short piece. But the Alma piece — and the reactions to it — afford us an important opportunity to examine our expectations of people who convert to Judaism. "
By definition, the conversion process entails boundaries and guardrails. I absolutely respect people who feel that you cannot validly convert to a monotheistic religion like Judaism without believing in the one (and only one) higher power in question. I’m not certain where I stand. On the one hand, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of atheism being no impediment to membership for people born Jewish but an automatic disqualification for anyone who converts (which creates an inherent ethnic privilege for those halachically Jewish by ancestry). On the other hand, and as I have mentioned before, as an atheist I would have no desire to convert to Judaism if I had been born into any other religious tradition (or no religious tradition at all).
By definition, the conversion process entails boundaries and guardrails. I absolutely respect people who feel that you cannot validly convert to a monotheistic religion like Judaism without believing in the one (and only one) higher power in question. I’m not certain where I stand. On the one hand, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of atheism being no impediment to membership for people born Jewish but an automatic disqualification for anyone who converts (which creates an inherent ethnic privilege for those halachically Jewish by ancestry). On the other hand, and as I have mentioned before, as an atheist I would have no desire to convert to Judaism if I had been born into any other religious tradition (or no religious tradition at all).
While an atheist Jew cannot have his/her Jewish birth status nullified, it does present an impediment in that the atheist Jew, including the Jews whom you mentioned in a previous posting wearing the Christian cross, are viewed as being apostate Jews. An older term for an apostate Jew is the Greek word apikoros ("disbeliever").
One can't be an apostate Jew unless one has already been a Jew at some time in one's life. So I cannot see how an atheist Gentile (or a Gentile who continues to wear Christian crosses, for whatever reason) can legally convert to Judaism only for the purpose of becoming an apostate Jew. Sorry but, as unfair as it may sound to you, it really makes no sense. Why wear the uniform if you don't like to play baseball?
While an atheist Jew cannot have his/her Jewish birth status nullified, it does present an impediment in that the atheist Jew, including the Jews whom you mentioned in a previous posting wearing the Christian cross, are viewed as being apostate Jews. An older term for an apostate Jew is the Greek word apikoros ("disbeliever").
Sign me up for team apikoros then (although I absolutely do not and never would wear a cross). I’ll think about that when I’m at Pajama Tot Shabbat with my wife and son tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork
One can't be an apostate Jew unless one has already been a Jew at some time in one's life. So I cannot see how an atheist Gentile (or a Gentile who continues to wear Christian crosses, for whatever reason) can legally convert to Judaism only for the purpose of becoming an apostate Jew. Sorry but, as unfair as it may sound to you, it really makes no sense. Why wear the uniform if you don't like to play baseball?
And as I’ve said before, I acknowledge the legitimacy of that viewpoint. I also agree that the exercise of conversion makes little sense for someone who does not believe in the underlying premise of HaShem (even though I remain ambivalent on the fairness aspect).
Going off your sports analogy, the article writer does seem to be playing baseball (uniform and all), and ostensibly she enjoys doing so. Maybe the apropos analogy is that she does not accept the authority of the umpire. Perhaps that falls a bit flat, but I am not now and never have been an organized sports person in the first place.
Sign me up for team apikoros then (although I absolutely do not and never would wear a cross). I’ll think about that when I’m at Pajama Tot Shabbat with my wife and son tonight.
"Team Apikoros" LOL Okay then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
And as I’ve said before, I acknowledge the legitimacy of that viewpoint. I also agree that the exercise of conversion makes little sense for someone who does not believe in the underlying premise of HaShem (even though I remain ambivalent on the fairness aspect).
I think the consensus here is pretty much in agreement with you on that -- that it doesn't seem to make much sense to convert to a religion one doesn't believe in.
If you're already born a Jew, however, and become apostate, I think that the community will always hold out some hope that, someday, you may return (teshuvah). So you'll always be a Jew and member of the "family," regardless. Somebody will keep the porchlight on for you.
A person who was never a Jew to begin with, though, who is an atheist yet wishes to convert to Judaism, really isn't "returning" to anything.
Burning question here: Do the parents dress in pajamas, too, for Pajama Tot Shabbat? Why should the kids have all the fun?
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(and I say that only in jest and intend no further disrespect).
