Long ago on independence square (Kansas City, Lee's Summit: residency, village, creek)

[MRG Dallas]

Originally Posted by SilverDoc

edit note: I've just checked a 1917 Jackson County map and found where The Missouri Pacific and Chicago Alton railroads cross , beside the present day Noland Road, between Osage and 31st St. I can see that the route Noland takes now, is the same as the one the road takes in 1917, but I'm not certain as to whether it was called Noland at that time. Also, I found (at least in 1917) there was no two railroad lines crossing each other near Selsa.

Does this help? BTW, I was unaware there was ever a "Glendale" or "Selsa" . .but anyway: (info is from a genealogy site posting, dated 2008)

There are some smart people on this list.....figuring the location out and
getting real close with little info. Here are some more facts on this subject
from Ted Stillwell, the guy who wrote the article in the Examiner about the
train robbery. He wrote to me yesterday.

he said: Glendale was a small community along the Alton
Railroad tracks in Eastern Jackson County, but after
the famous train robbery they changed it's name to
Selsa.

Directions to Glendale: From Independence Center, proceed east on 39th to
the
intersection at the bottom of the hill (Little Blue
Parkway). Do not cross the railroad tracks, rather
turn left onto Selsa Road. Less than a quarter of a mile
north of the intersection, Selsa road makes a very
noticeable dog leg, and continues north along the
railroad tracks. It is my understanding, that the road
made the dog leg to go around Joe Matt's general
store.

The train depot stood on the other side of the
tracks very near the dog leg. I doubt you would find
any other indications of the community left today.

About blue cut: Jesse James scholars disagree to some extent as to the
exact location of the Blue Cut train robbery. Some
believe it was located where Noland Road crosses the
old Alton line at 31st Street (Galen Boyer Pontiac).
Others believe it was east of there closer to where
Lee's Summit Road crosses the tracks.

I have walked the tracks from Glendale to Noland Road and have found
no other noticeable cut other than Noland Road. But,
that entire stretch has been under heavy development
for many years.

I can remember when Lee's Summit Road
crossed the tracks on an old wooden bridge before the
road was widened and relocated. A lot of dirt was
moved and the landscape drastically altered.

Independence -Harrisonville road: Noland Road follows the path of the
old road from Independence to Harrisonville, so
thinking logically, a guy would assume they were
probably one and the same.

[WCHS'59]

Originally Posted by MRG Dallas

Does this help? BTW, I was unaware there was ever a "Glendale" or "Selsa" . .but anyway: (info is from a genealogy site posting, dated 2008)

There are some smart people on this list.....figuring the location out and
getting real close with little info. Here are some more facts on this subject
from Ted Stillwell, the guy who wrote the article in the Examiner about the
train robbery. He wrote to me yesterday.

he said: Glendale was a small community along the Alton
Railroad tracks in Eastern Jackson County, but after
the famous train robbery they changed it's name to
Selsa.

Directions to Glendale: From Independence Center, proceed east on 39th to
the
intersection at the bottom of the hill (Little Blue
Parkway). Do not cross the railroad tracks, rather
turn left onto Selsa Road. Less than a quarter of a mile
north of the intersection, Selsa road makes a very
noticeable dog leg, and continues north along the
railroad tracks. It is my understanding, that the road
made the dog leg to go around Joe Matt's general
store.

The train depot stood on the other side of the
tracks very near the dog leg. I doubt you would find
any other indications of the community left today.

About blue cut: Jesse James scholars disagree to some extent as to the
exact location of the Blue Cut train robbery. Some
believe it was located where Noland Road crosses the
old Alton line at 31st Street (Galen Boyer Pontiac).
Others believe it was east of there closer to where
Lee's Summit Road crosses the tracks.

I have walked the tracks from Glendale to Noland Road and have found
no other noticeable cut other than Noland Road. But,
that entire stretch has been under heavy development
for many years.

I can remember when Lee's Summit Road
crossed the tracks on an old wooden bridge before the
road was widened and relocated. A lot of dirt was
moved and the landscape drastically altered.

Independence -Harrisonville road: Noland Road follows the path of the
old road from Independence to Harrisonville, so
thinking logically, a guy would assume they were
probably one and the same.

The Selsa depot was where they held the Jesse James reenactment robbery in 1961 when the last "Chicago & Alton" passenger train came through. I attended but there were many people parked along Selsa Road and no loudspeakers to announce the train arrival, etc. I do recall the train was quite late. I saw masked riders and shots fired and that was about the extent of it.

The confusion, at least to me, exists in the New York Times article when it says the site was four miles east of Independence and two miles west of Glendale or Selsa.

[WCHS'59]

Last month at the Truman Library, I saw on display a very short hand written letter from a couple living somewhere in the northeast United States. The letter accompanied a Purple Heart medal that had been presented to the parents of a young man who had been killed in the fighting in Korea. The Purple Heart is presented to the recipient for wounds incurred in battle but is also presented to the next of kin after death.

The letter, addressed to President Truman, said that inasmuch as Truman was responsible for their son’s death, he should have the medal for his trophy room. They also stated that their biggest regret was that Truman’s daughter was not there to receive the same treatment their son received.

[WCHS'59]

Originally Posted by WCHS'59

I googled on "Blue Cut, Missouri" and found this information connected to the September 7, 1881, train robbery.

"The James Gang was planning to rob a train near Glendale, Missouri, more specifically in the area known as Blue Cut. Blue Cut was a thirty-mile curve down the train tracks that forced trains to slow down to twenty-five miles per hour or so. It would be the perfect place for a train robbery."

Another reference says Blue Cut was sometimes known as Rocky Cut and was a slice carved out of a thirty foot hillside for the Chicago and Alton near Glendale.

There is a sharp northwest curve north of Selsa but I cannot determine whether there is a cut there.

What seems to make more sense is the curve requiring a reduction of train speed down to twenty-five miles an hour. As railroad track curves go, that curve going west just north of Selsa is pretty serious. The engineer would have had to have maintained a slow speed until he got the rear of his train entirely around that curve.

[WCHS'59]

Here is some background concerning an 1896 Chicago & Alton train robbery.

In this case, the C&A express passenger train was headed east and the robbery took place near what the New York Times called the famous “Blue Cut.”

After the train stopped at Independence, three men climbed aboard undetected and concealed themselves behind the tender. When the train reached the bridge over the Missouri Pacific tracks, about one mile from Independence, the robbers descended on the engine and ordered the train stopped.

The robbers ordered the coaches uncoupled and then ordered the engineer to restart pulling only the express car. According to the story, the train was soon speeding down the steep grade beyond the Blue Cut.

The robbers ordered the train stopped after about two miles at the "old Glendale Cut," where many train robberies had occurred in the past, including that of the James boys. Here they rifled the express car and blew open the safe with dynamite. With the job finished, they ran the engine to a mile east of Glendale, and then disabled the engine to where it could not be used.

The robbers then disappeared into the countryside with only $2,000.

[WCHS'59]

"The Assassination of Jesse James" Robbery Scene - YouTube

Here is what is described by the uploader as the Jesse James Blue Cut train robbery. the scene is from the 2007 movie, "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford." Brad Pitt, Casey Affleck, and Sam Sheppard in the starring roles.

The scene seems to generally follow the New York Times description but the track curve is coming from the wrong direction, chuckle. I would think the ballast (gravel) moving from the vibration of the rather distant oncoming train would be something for the MythBusters folks to take a look at.

[WCHS'59]

This is supposed to be the result of the first Jesse James gang train robbery, which took place at Adair, Iowa, on July 21, 1873. The gang stole some rail hand equipment and loosened the spikes and rails causing the train wreck killing the engineer and injuring many people.

Supposedly, they went among all these people and robbed them.

[WCHS'59]

I came across a web site that says Independence was originally called Big Spring.

[WCHS'59]

Originally Posted by WCHS'59

I came across a web site that says Independence was originally called Big Spring.

Another web site says the Indians called the future site of Independence, Big Spring.

[pearjas]

Big Spring? Wow.. I've not heard that one! Interesting.