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Are we arguing about something? If so, I'm not sure why. I think we are totally agreeing with each other for the most part. I didn't mean to say that Philly stadiums are urban. That's not what I meant. I guess my post was misunderstood. The stadiums are in an urban/industrial area (KC's are in a suburban/industrial area). But they are still in a gigantic parking lot. Same with LA. That's all I was saying. Phillies stadiums function about the same as KC's, although as I mentioned, more people take transit and there are places to walk to beyond the parking lots. Cordish is building some nonsense (canned entertainment district, ie smaller version of P&L District) in the parking lot of the stadiums which I'm sure will be popular on games days. It would be nice to KC did "something" with the parking lots or area around the stadiums. All this talk about a downtown kc stadium is fun, but it's NEVER going to happen in KC. That boat has sailed and even when the issues comes up again, people will want to keep the stadiums in a suburban location and by then, the available places to build downtown will probably be slim and the cost will still be way to high for KC residents to swallow.
No hope at all? It's official... CrownVic95 has finally broke you. Well, I'm still going to dream about one or two light rail lines connected to the extended streetcar line by 2025. The Streetcar line that tens of thousands of people living in downtown high rises and midtown neighborhoods can take to the downtown ballpark, new office complexs and new entertainment districts. I'll still be on my 1/3 acre lot 25 minutes from downtown, but I'll sure drive to a park n ride. Wait, I guess I'm still in Denver dreaming about a streetcar line. None of that other stuff is going to happen in KC.
No hope at all? It's official... CrownVic95 has finally broke you. Well, I'm still going to dream about one or two light rail lines connected to the extended streetcar line by 2025. The Streetcar line that tens of thousands of people living in downtown high rises and midtown neighborhoods can take to the downtown ballpark, new office complexs and new entertainment districts. I'll still be on my 1/3 acre lot 25 minutes from downtown, but I'll sure drive to a park n ride. Wait, I guess I'm still in Denver dreaming about a streetcar line. None of that other stuff is going to happen in KC.
CrownVic has no impact on my thoughts . But no, I have no hope for a stadium. I have dreams, but as far as a downtown ballpark in KC, a dream is as good as it gets. But I will always think of what could have been, dream up renderings etc.
As much as I would like to think otherwise and as I have mentioned in many posts, KCMO is bouncing back. You have to keep things in perspective and while KCMO does have a lot going on, so does every other city in the country right now. So KC is still somewhat lagging. For example, Baltimore, a city that has been nearly as stagnant as KC is probably doing three times as much downtown. The city has several residential skyscrapers about to break ground, one, over 45 stories. It also has at least three office towers in the works, one is going up now and several hotels and a 2 billion dollar new light rail line is ready to start construction. And the renderings for what is planned are very extensive from a new arena to a new massive pedestrian bridge over the inner harbor to mixed used projects along the harbor that are the size of Crown Center. Same with Pittsburgh etc. I'm not talking about the crazy boom towns like Seattle and Austin and Denver. I'm talking about towns that are very similar to KC here.
KC is not alone in this rebirth of downtown and when you compare KC to most other towns, it's still lacking to some degree.
I'm not ripping KC at all though. KC is doing great. Residential is about there. I think you will see new proposals now for much larger and more expensive projects. Hotels are starting to get some attention. KC still desperately needs more modern hotel rooms downtown and is missing some major flags despite the 1000 rooms coming online soon. And the office market in downtown KC is just not there at all. The proposed office tower on Grand is still a vision. Copaken is an extremely lethargic developer. Unless some local companies step up and want to be downtown, that will stay a rendering for 10 plus years just like most of the other Copaken downtown projects have. But what excited me about that project is that at least somebody is envisioning something. For KC, that's huge. I can't remember the last time somebody even paid to have a rendering done of a new office tower in downtown KC. That's not normal for a growing large metro. So that gives me hope that people are starting to think about it more.
My point is that KCMO has got to keep the pedal to the medal. The city seems to easily slip into status quo mode and years go by before it wakes again, but in the mean time, other cities continue to aggressively develop and pull away.
I just hope people in KC are keeping things in perspective. Sure, the residential is doing great. But there should actually be more going on behind the scenes. The deck over 670 should be getting a lot more attention, the city should be figuring out a way to get the streetcar extended to the plaza NOW. The commuter rail proposals should be further along. There should be more planning going on and funding nearly in place to get something done with the river levees and bring some much needed recreation to the urban core. Metro KC is STILL putting way too much emphasis on suburban development and lackluster subsidized suburban development at that.
So for that reason. KC will be lucky to see the streetcar extension to the plaza funded and under design by 2025, let alone a more extensive transit system and a stadium. KC is just not a very fast paced town. Things take a very long time to happen there. But at least its not just doing nothing and there is hope that in the next 10-15 years, downtown KC will at least have a few more residential towers and maybe, just maybe somebody will build an office tower if they can find a company that is willing to turn down the free office parks in the burbs.
As much as I would like to think otherwise and as I have mentioned in many posts, KCMO is bouncing back. You have to keep things in perspective and while KCMO does have a lot going on, so does every other city in the country right now. So KC is still somewhat lagging. For example, Baltimore, a city that has been nearly as stagnant as KC is probably doing three times as much downtown. The city has several residential skyscrapers about to break ground, one, over 45 stories. It also has at least three office towers in the works, one is going up now and several hotels and a 2 billion dollar new light rail line is ready to start construction. And the renderings for what is planned are very extensive from a new arena to a new massive pedestrian bridge over the inner harbor to mixed used projects along the harbor that are the size of Crown Center. Same with Pittsburgh etc. I'm not talking about the crazy boom towns like Seattle and Austin and Denver. I'm talking about towns that are very similar to KC here.
Kansas City isn't all that far behind in the rebirth of downtowns anymore. What you've failed to mention is that both Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. already have extensive light rail systems. I'm going to make the argument that transit spurs transit-oriented development which then spurs higher density and mixed use development downtown. Kansas City really needs to be serious about expanding the streetcar / light rail.
I don't really see Kansas City being far behind Indianapolis or Cincinnati in downtown redevelopment. The biggest difference between Kansas City and Indianapolis / Cincinnati seems to be the fact that Indianapolis and Cincinnati have downtown stadiums and both make much better use of their downtown river fronts.
If the Plaza area and UMKC were adjacent to downtown, we'd be having a much different conversation.
Kansas City isn't all that far behind in the rebirth of downtowns anymore. What you've failed to mention is that both Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. already have extensive light rail systems. I'm going to make the argument that transit spurs transit-oriented development which then spurs higher density and mixed use development downtown. Kansas City really needs to be serious about expanding the streetcar / light rail.
I don't really see Kansas City being far behind Indianapolis or Cincinnati in downtown redevelopment. The biggest difference between Kansas City and Indianapolis / Cincinnati seems to be the fact that Indianapolis and Cincinnati have downtown stadiums and both make much better use of their downtown river fronts.
If the Plaza area and UMKC were adjacent to downtown, we'd be having a much different conversation.
Yes, that's true. And I think you are right on the residential side of things. However, I would also like to see downtown KC come back as a jobs center as well. I'm not talking about Cerner building five skyscrapers. I'm just hoping for a nice recovery from a downtown that has lost a higher percent of its jobs over the last ten years than almost any other downtown in the country.
Indy and Cincy both have a lot of companies downtown and stronger office markets with class A rates at getting about 10-20% higher rates than downtown kc. Both also have extensive recreational development and have been planning and implementing those types of changes for years. Cincy with both sides of the river and Indy with all their downtown rivers and parks.
KCMO should be much further along in other areas. It just seems like KC does things one project at time. I think for KC to really stand out, the city needs to apply the same type of ambition to some other things as they have with the streetcar starter line. And companies need to step up. I know I keep saying that, but it's true. The local business community has to step up and they just are not doing that. Luckily, KCMO has been landing some out of town jobs, but for downtown to really see progress on par with some of these other communities, than you have to have a large commitment and investment by the local business community. For example, if Cerner was building a signature skyscraper downtown, they would probably also be actively involved in extending the streetcar, bringing in more hotels and building recreation infrastructure. Instead, they are completely out of the loop.
I'm sure people in Cincy are dreaming of having a Performing art center like KC or Indy wishes they had the burgeoning residential warehouse districts that KC has. Indy is further behind KC when it comes to transit and Cincy is pretty much the same.
But there is always room for improvement and I really think that KC could be doing even more than it is.
While the downtown stadium is not going to happen. I really think the city should try to make these happen by 2025:
Extending the Streetcar to the Plaza should be the absolute first priority, get that done and get it done now, don't worry about any other routes.
But at the same time...
Get that deck built over 670 to add much needed green space to downtown and connect the CBD to the Crossroads district. It would also create demand to develop out the corridor.
Develop the river levees (both KS and MO rivers) into trails and connect the parks together with dedicated trails (Berkley, Penn Valley etc).
Build a pedestrian bridge over the MO river to connect the two sides of the river and bring people downtown for recreation. See close by Omaha for a great example of this.
Get at least one of the jackson county commuter DME lines in place. Forget about all the rest and get one line in place to Blue Springs or Lee's Summit.
Build a convention hotel and finish what you started. Why spend a billion dollars on hospitality infrastructure and not invest in the last piece of the puzzle to make it all come together? KC has created one of the best convention packages in the nation with the P&L District, arena, ballroom, Bartle Hall, Municipal auditorium, PAC etc all in a nice walkable area and now the street car that brings Crown Center closer. The only thing missing is hotel rooms near the convention center. There are only about 2000 high quality hotel rooms within walking distance and most are tired and dated. Spend the money, get a new hotel built and start marketing what may be the best 2nd or 3rd tier convention set up in the nation. With KC's central location, there is no reason KC can't become a great convention city again. That's something that Indy has done that KC could have done.
Clean up Grand Ave. This should be KC's main drag and is should be a LOT nicer than it is. From the City Market to Union Hill, Grand Ave should be a heavily landscaped route with dedicated bike lanes, new wide sidewalks and smaller green spaces along it maybe with some fountains etc. Make Grand Ave...Grand!
Get ONE big local company to go downtown. I don't care who it is, but there needs to be somebody downtown in a big high profile building with their name on it. A company that is not just downtown, but has a vested interest in helping make all the rest of the things I just listed happen. If nobody local ever steps up than maybe KC an land a big fish from out of town.
If all this happens, residential will be in much more demand than it is now and KC will see all kinds of new towers and other residential type developments.
This could all happen by 2025. "could" is the key word.
Where do you propose that KC gets the money for all these projects? Many of the people living there barely survive now. They couldn't afford to pay more taxes.
Where do you propose that KC gets the money for all these projects? Many of the people living there barely survive now. They couldn't afford to pay more taxes.
they could fund the stadium with electronic pull tabs, whatever shortage needs to be made up can come out of the pockets of smokers...that'll teach 'em to throw their butts on the ground
Where do you propose that KC gets the money for all these projects? Many of the people living there barely survive now. They couldn't afford to pay more taxes.
Do you think these are just fluff projects, to make the city more awesome? These are revenue generators; an investment in the city to improve property values, and attract more businesses, conventions and market-rate apartments. On top of that, many of these projects will result in reduced crime.
Naturally, some tax hikes would probably occur anyway, but usually they find ways to fund projects like this without hitting the people who "barely survive now" (Although I'm not sure who you're referring to exactly. Kansas City is no poorer than its peer cities, many of whom are developing their urban resources at a faster pace.)
I worked in KC for 20+ years. A majority of those who live in the inner city are surviving on food stamps and welfare. There are no jobs. Some of the worst schools in the country are in KC. Fix the schools first.
Where do you propose that KC gets the money for all these projects? Many of the people living there barely survive now. They couldn't afford to pay more taxes.
A city the size of KC can easily make all of that happen over a period of ten years. Actually, the city has done a lot more than this in the last ten years.
For a city to grow and have the quality life that people want and to get more residents, conventions, tourists and, yes, jobs. It has to grow and evolve. The things I listed are things cities are doing to evolve and compete and the cities that are doing the most of these kinds of things are the ones that today are the most economically vibrant.
And there is no way to "fix the schools first". The only way to fix the schools is to make urban KCMO attractive enough to speed up gentrification and improve demographics. Lots of people don't want to here that, but it's true.
That schools is becoming a success story because Downtown is becoming more attractive to parents that know how to raise their kids. The KCMO School district needs more of those types of families. You can throw all the money in the world at the district and do all kinds of things politically to improve schools and nothing will be as effective as simply making the city a more desirable place to live. You can't fix the schools "first". Better schools will come as the city improves and gentrifies. You just can not educate children properly in a 99% welfare/thug environment.
Anyone familiar with the KC schools knows that the school board is a dysfunctional mess. It has been for many years. How do you propose to fix that when no one else has been able to fix it? And the magnet school plan became a national joke. No young child has any idea what they will want to do later in life.
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I think we are totally agreeing with each other for the most part. I didn't mean to say that Philly stadiums are urban. That's not what I meant. I guess my post was misunderstood. The stadiums are in an urban/industrial area (KC's are in a suburban/industrial area). But they are still in a gigantic parking lot. Same with LA. That's all I was saying. Phillies stadiums function about the same as KC's, although as I mentioned, more people take transit and there are places to walk to beyond the parking lots. Cordish is building some nonsense (canned entertainment district, ie smaller version of P&L District) in the parking lot of the stadiums which I'm sure will be popular on games days. It would be nice to KC did "something" with the parking lots or area around the stadiums. All this talk about a downtown kc stadium is fun, but it's NEVER going to happen in KC. That boat has sailed and even when the issues comes up again, people will want to keep the stadiums in a suburban location and by then, the available places to build downtown will probably be slim and the cost will still be way to high for KC residents to swallow.
