[olecapt]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

Let's put every lender in the same bucket and therefore let's screw the lenders!!! Now I can sleep at night if I decide to be a POS.

Moderator cut: personal attack

Virtually all the lenders involved in this particular piece of garbage are gone including the big ones. Note however the remaining ones are not actually free from guilt. Wells Fargo for instance did very little subprime. But they sure as hell referred it to people who did do it.

So you know it is dirty...and you don't do it...but you refer those who are targets to those who do...

Interesting ethics.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

I can google:

1. SCAM Fraud and Church
2. Scam Fraud Charity
3. Scam Fraud and Friends
4. Scam Fraud and Parents

OR. I can google Scam, Fraud and Realtor.

Well.. It looks like "Dozens and dozens" of owners are taken by REALTOR Fraud. (See below).Moderator cut: inappropriate comment
Should You Trust Your Realtor? How To Detect A Scam (http://ezinearticles.com/?Should-You-Trust-Your-Realtor?-How-To-Detect-A-Scam&id=641967 - broken link)

Realtor scam www.realrealtysolutions.com

Twin Cities Real Estate Blog » 22% of Minneapolis Association Realtors Lack Ethics (Training)

Maid-Turned-Realtor Ran Vegas Mortgage Scam, Prosecutors Say - Bloomberg.com

Naples realtor linked to mortgage scam - NBC-2.com WBBH News for Fort Myers, Cape Coral & Naples, Florida

Realtor pleads guilty in mortgage fraud scam - [domain blocked due to spam]

Buying or Selling a Home: Realtor Fraud?, pressing charges, real estate agent

[olecapt]

Realitors? I would think you would get few hits.

RE Agents are poorly educated, poorly supervised and the vast majority are below borderline competent.

You feel better now?

And anyone with a scam can very easily get a RE license to assist the fraud .

Talk to your State Legislator. But don't expect anything to happen.

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

I can google:

1. SCAM Fraud and Church
2. Scam Fraud Charity
3. Scam Fraud and Friends
4. Scam Fraud and Parents

OR. I can google Scam, Fraud and Realitors.

Well.. It looks like "Dozens and dozens" of owners are taken by REALTOR Fraud. (See below). I say, burn them all at the stake!!!!!

Should You Trust Your Realtor? How To Detect A Scam (http://ezinearticles.com/?Should-You-Trust-Your-Realtor?-How-To-Detect-A-Scam&id=641967 - broken link)

Realtor scam www.realrealtysolutions.com

Twin Cities Real Estate Blog » 22% of Minneapolis Association Realtors Lack Ethics (Training)

Maid-Turned-Realtor Ran Vegas Mortgage Scam, Prosecutors Say - Bloomberg.com

Naples realtor linked to mortgage scam - NBC-2.com WBBH News for Fort Myers, Cape Coral & Naples, Florida

Realtor pleads guilty in mortgage fraud scam - [domain blocked due to spam]

Buying or Selling a Home: Realtor Fraud?, pressing charges, real estate agent

[cmist]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

cmist, you seem to believe that any recognition of wrongdoing elsewhere is a tacit defense of banks and their bailout. I've yet to see anyone in this thread defend the bailout or indicate that they "felt sorry" for the banks. Our disagreement is primarily on where to assign the various degrees of blame.

It's become quite fashionable for the media to paint all underwater home buyers as naive rubes who were taken advantage of by the evil banks. This is demonstrably false. I fully acknowledge that many buyers played by the rules and just got the timing wrong. But I've also supplied some substantiation that mortgage fraud was rampant. Much more so than I think you acknowledge.

I'm a huge proponent of free markets (free markets do not necessarily mean zero regulation). I do believe banks should be punished for their poor business decisions, and they have been. Yes, some enormous institutions were bailed out. That is against my general principles but I'm going to defer to Bernanke's opinion that to let them fail would have been catastrophic.

Glad to hear you don't believe in bank bailouts. If you say you dont believe in bank bailouts, enough said, I believe you. In the same fashion, you assumed that because I expect the national financial institutions to conduct business responsibly that I would want to outlaw fast food, cigarettes, or personally control the finances of the entire planet. And likewise, this was untrue.

My main frustration is that I have heard nothing from the banks themselves acknowledging their own wrongdoing, and no plans on how to prevent such a thing in the future. This makes me very uneasy and I dont feel any sense of closure.

I hear more defenses not only from the banks themselves, but from the very people who were screwed as well, since just about everyone got screwed by this and I DON'T get it. It seems like there is some form of brainwashing or at least some type of mass confusion that no one is bothering to clear up.

It wasnt "just" them, agreed. It literally COULDN'T have been just them since it would take 2 to make a loan in the first place. They need a struggling clientele base in order to make bad loans look attractive.

I just want some reassurance, I guess, and dont seem to find it anywhere.

I personally have NOT seen very many stories in the media that accurately reflect the situation and had a lot of pent up frustrations and it felt good to get it out. I'm running out of steam though, as its going in circles now.

Now correct my thinking in this area about the catastrophic part. This is all speculation and Im interested in hearing different view points on how things would have gone if they all failed.

I think what we are dealing with right NOW is pretty catastrophic anyhow.

Now imagine the opposite scenario.

ALL the banks collapsed. No one can have their home foreclosed on because no one is out there to collect their payments, or monitor who is paying or not. Or at the very least it would be VERY hard to afford the task force required to actually conduct the foreclosure process. They can barely do it now WHILE they are in business.

It would be kind of like monopoly, "Bank error in your favor". The vibe would be quite opposite. People would probably be dancing in the streets.

Now you have all these businesses and homeowners that no longer owe banks anything. The payments previously needed for astronomical mortgage payments or other loans could be used to spend on other things that would have fueled the economy rather than squashed it.

The resorts that are closing or now closed in Vegas would have remained opened and may have even thrown a HUGE party instead of going under with the spare cash. People would NOW have money to spend.

Dont worry, banks would arise again and have some serious things to ponder as they saw that no one will come to their rescue if they make the same mistakes. The banking industry would rise again and have to structure a game plan that actually WORKED.

I know it seems utopian and dreamy, and seriously flawed. But its one idea of what could have happened under the principles of a free market.

Just who would it have been catastrophic for exactly and why?

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Now how about your report on the dozen and dozens of owner occupants who have been convicted for mortgage fraud?

A conviction is a poor indicator on whether the law was broken. I speed every single day that I drive a car. I haven't been convicted of doing so for years. Further, it's complete nonsense to limit the discussion to owner occupants when a substantial piece of the fraud involved non-occupancy.

So-called ‘occupancy fraud’—in which a speculator claims he will live in a house he is buying when it is actually a property he is purchasing for investment purposes-- accounted for about 20 percent of all mortgage swindles during the go-go years of subprime lending...

Fitch Ratings, for instance, looked at a portfolio of 45 subprime loans that defaulted within their first year and found that in two-thirds of the cases borrowers never occupied the property, though they said they intended to.

In fact, among the five states with the highest rates of foreclosures, defaults by known speculators (that is, those who admitted they were buying investment properties) account for more than one-fifth of all mortgages going bad.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Realitors? I would think you would get few hits.

RE Agents are poorly educated, poorly supervised and the vast majority are below borderline competent.

You feel better now?

And anyone with a scam can very easily get a RE license to assist the fraud .

Talk to your State Legislator. But don't expect anything to happen.

If what you say is true, ( how would I know who to trust??? Moderator cut: personal attack

Because someone is "licensed" or maybe "ePro certified"???

Maybe the onus should be placed on the consumer to sniff out B.S. artists???

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

If what you say is true, how would I know who to trust???
Moderator cut: personal attack

Because someone is "licensed" or maybe "ePro certified"???

Maybe the onus should be placed on the consumer to sniff out B.S. artists???

You don't. Moderator cut: personal attack

But the consumer gets what they ask for. Good agents are around. Olecapt is a pretty good example. But the co-worker who has her license and will help out generally is not. You need 10 or 20 transactions if you are reasonably bright and educated. You need three times that many if you are not. Most of the agents in most office have not got 20 transaction over their career.

Nothing wrong with being "ePro certified". Means you can fog a mirror and spent the $100 or whatever. It was however interesting to see what they consider important. Than again at 5:00AM we got a full document set to Europe after the clients systems refused to allow anything through. That takes a little more than an "ePro".

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

For the record, I am not saying the lenders were as pure as snow. As we all know, there were many people who were pushing consumption on all of us. For instance, it seems the government wants us to pi_s away every last nickel we have. Heck, they changed day light savings so that there was more hours to shop. They gave rebates for 1st time buyers and only allowed a messily 3% savings to buy a home. I assume they now want those 1st time buyers to take out some credit card debt at 20% interest to buy some furnishings.

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by cmist

Glad to hear you don't believe in bank bailouts. If you say you dont believe in bank bailouts, enough said, I believe you. In the same fashion, you assumed that because I expect the national financial institutions to conduct business responsibly that I would want to outlaw fast food, cigarettes, or personally control the finances of the entire planet. And likewise, this was untrue.

You may have missed this from a couple days back -

Originally Posted by Slim 10

Which ironically leads to the diatribe on why banks should not be bailed out.

If it was the banks who decided that they were dumb enough to lend money to pple who couldn't pay, then shouldn't they deserve to go under?

I know it seems utopian and dreamy, and seriously flawed. But its one idea of what could have happened under the principles of a free market.

Just who would it have been catastrophic for exactly and why?

I think you're more of an optimist than I. If you believe Bernanke (I know a good number of people do not) we were on the brink of a global financial meltdown. While the scenario you envision was utopian and dreamy, I was becoming increasingly less concerned with home values and spending more time mulling over whether I had enough food and ammunition on hand. I know, I know.

What I'm saying, is that I think it would have been catastrophic for a majority of the general populous.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

I don't believe everything I read but this is an interesting point. The Commercial Real Estate Crash Debunks The Myth Of Predatory Lending