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I didn't catch the original thread where this topic came up, so I dunno what the exact background is here.....
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. Not referring to anything in particular here, but I've witnessed it many times before. I know his posts might seem robotic and redundant, but if I was looking into (for instance) taking out a mortgage on a home I would want to know every single factoid available to me, no matter how trivial it may seem. Even if it was some situation where the house was in a hamlet different from the mailing address, same town, same school district, etc. and there were no taxation differences from homes that are in the hamlet bearing the name of my mailing address, that's still something I want to know....just for the hell of it. Why wouldn't you want to?
Plus - and this is something I'm only mentioning for the sake of conversation - I feel this is actually very worthwhile and useful information to be familiar with. IMO, understanding the differences in how local municipal divisions are layered within, and interact with, federal and state governmental services like post offices, school districts, etc. gives a lot of insight into the "hows" and "whys" of the way things work on Long Island & in New York State. Not necessarily the specific names and complexities of certain areas, but the underlying structure. I first stumbled across this topic a few years ago when web-based open mapping software debuted (Google Earth, WikiMapia) and Walter really helped me understand the fundamental concepts and how they translate from words, numbers and imaginary lines to the machinations of our communities and the services we rely on. There's also a fantastic article on Wikipedia that was very easy to understand despite it's length. Personally, and keep in mind I AM a big nerd, I think all this stuff is really interesting....especially when you get into examining the history surrounding it.
Looking back now, I'm actually kinda shocked local geography isn't taught on any level in LI's public schools (that I'm aware of, at least). I think it would be a lot more interesting than "local" topics I remember learning about, and it's definitely more useful. I never knew about, or even heard about, any of this until a few years ago and I doubt many others (aside from members of this forum, of course) know about it either.
As for whether "Huntington Village" exists or not? It absolutely does! Not in any kind of official sense, but neighborhoods of cities, towns, hamlets, etc. can certainly have informal names they're commonly (or uncommonly) known as. I think HV is just as valid as any one of the neighborhood names in New York City's 5 Boroughs. They're literally the same exact thing, and places like Park Slope or Rockaway Beach certainly "exist"! (Side note for any other nerds out there: Yale University Press is releasing a series of books that try to define neighborhood names and boundaries in NYC. They include tons of original research, incredibly detailed maps and both current and historic photos. So far they've released ones for Brooklyn, and Queens, which most libraries & bookstores carry. I've got both and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the next three!!)
Technically, the word "hamlet" doesn't even have an official definition in NY State law either, we only have defined borders for them on LI because Nassau and Suffolk counties took the time to draw them out and make them something slightly more official....and they've likely stayed a part of our fabric more because the Census Bureau used them as the basis of their Census-Designated Place entries than any real importance in local matters. In most parts of the state, their borders are just as loose and informal as neighborhoods like "Huntington Village", and they rarely have coterminous CDPs. An upstate "hamlet" is most often (though not always) effectively identical to a Long Island "neighborhood", and if it's defined by anything at all it's a ZIP code or school district. Most upstate towns function more like villages do on Long Island, and many do not have any "hamlets" at all....just the town. Pretty sure this is also the situation in parts of Westchester. So going back to what I said earlier, is it really important to know what Long Island hamlets have matching ZIP codes and which don't? No, not at all.....but I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know this about where they live.
Lastly, I also wanna mention that even though I have been fully schooled in LI geography now thanks to the internet and Walter G, I still don't use correct terminology or names in casual conversation. I have "North Wantagh" in my "Location:" info, but I hardly ever tell people that's where I live....it's usually just "Wantagh". I think I would sound like a real dick if I replied "I live in the hamlet of North Wantagh in the Town of Hempstead, Nassau County, NY within the service area of the Wantagh, NY 11793 postal zone" any time someone inquired. However, I do like it when news reports and other media cite correct geography since it might clue more people in to these things....and I think Walter is actually to thank for that. He's mentioned he writes to Newsday and Cablevision occasionally when they "mess up". I mean, ideally I'd love to live in a world where you could tell any random person "hey, meet me over in University Gardens" (a little known hamlet bordering Queens in the Great Neck area) and they would know exactly what I'm talking about....but I know that's probably never gonna happen
PS: West Hills at one time did have a post office, in fact it was one of the first P.O.'s in Suffolk County.....though it hasn't existed for at least a hundred years if not much longer. There is an old historic marker on it's former site, an empty lot on Oakwood Road near it's intersection with Jericho Turnpike.
I get your point and just to be clear, I'm not trying to offend you or anything. But it's really just your "downtown" area. I will stand by the statement that it can be confusing to people that are not familiar with the slang term HV (like the locals who know it's not an actual village in Suffolk County, NY). I'm sure you can agree on that.
I never disagreed with that. I'd add that it's more than just a "slang" term though, since the name dates back more than 200 years.
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There are posts where people call HV "V of H"..I remember a post not too long ago the poster comparing it to other well known villages RVC & GC..And specifically stating he/she desired to live in a village. I know this can have dual-meanings, that is definitely valid.
One of the reasons Walter annoys so many people is that he rarely considers the context of peoples' posts. Without knowing what specific thread you are referring to here, I'm going to assume this poster meant s/he wanted a "village" environment with walkable shops, restaurants, and a strong sense of community. I doubt s/he was referring to governance. If s/he was, then yes, a correction would be in order.
I'll stand by the statement that nobody I know (and I do hang out with some pretty bright folks) thinks Huntington Village is a municipal village. We know its our downtown. If you refer to it as Downtown Huntington, are you worried people will get lost trying to find Uptown Huntington? It's the same argument.
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I definitely don't want to have a geography battle, but When you <look up your address here> your CDP is West Hills (from what I gathered in previous posts).
Well, funny you ask. As I stated above, information professionals HATE the census FactFinder interface due to its common inaccuracies and general wonkyness. Its okay for casual info needs, but not for professional research.The area where I live, Cold Spring Hills (which consists of the former Otto Kahn estate), is right at an odd Bermuda Triangle are where West Hills, Cold Spring Harbor, Huntington, and Woodbury converge. Up until 1914 it was woodland wilderness. I'm not sure how well surveyed the area was and how well defined the hamlet borders that coverage there were. The estate was developed into suburban homes beginning in the early 1940s.
If I enter my proper address into this interface (street address + Huntington, 11743) it lists my CDP as West Hills. If I change the city and state to the incorrect address of Cold Spring Harbor, 11724, it says my CDP is CSH. It doesn't do this for all addresses, but does for mine and several homes in my neighborhood. The likely reason is that there are two conflicting data sets - one which thinks my home is in CSH hamlet and one that thinks it's in WH hamlet. It's open to debate which is the "correct" info. There are multiple reasons for this that I could discuss if the need arises. Interestingly, Town records including the original floorplans for my home place it in Cold Spring Harbor. For all-intents-an-purposes though, my home is in Huntington - not West Hills, not Cold Spring Harbor. I know Walter Greenspan disagrees. It's incredibly condescending to insist someone doesn't know where they live (especially with my background and knowledge of the area). It's even more condescending and rude to announce it to people in random threads (which he has had occasion to do).
You're putting way too much stock in these unincorporated areas. They're basically meaningless, except as geographical trivia and relics from a bygone era when LI was a rural farming community. While they are CDP's on LI, census data is still collected at ZIP code level. Our hamlets have layers on top of them (postal districts, fire districts, congressional districts, etc...) that do have functional meaning. The community of a school or postal district has just as much validity as the community of an unincorporated hamlet. In practical terms, more validity.
If, for whatever reason, an incorporated village were to be formed that doesn't mean the entire hamlet would be part of it. Most likely, it wouldn't be. Here's where knowledge of local neighborhoods, history, and politics trump geography lessons (or at least put them in context).
I'm out of town right now, so I don't have my Huntington history books handy, but if memory serves, the Incorporated Village of Huntington Bay was formed in the 1920s from the hamlet of Wincoma and a small portion of the hamlet of Halesite. It was something new, founded by a small group of wealthy estate owners who were mainly interested in having their own police force and zoning ordinances. It had nothing to do with hamlet borders.
A Village of West Hills comprised of the entire hamlet just isn't very likely. Cold Spring Hills is quite a different neighborhood from West Hills ("colloquially" thought of as the area surrounding West Hills County Park). They have very different characters and are divided by Jericho Tpk. In CS Hills we also have a very politically powerful civic association that is generally very good at getting what it needs from the Town. An incorporated village makes no sense for our needs. But, yes, if an incorporation happened, I'd "live" there. I'd also imagine the USPS would add the new village name (which could also be whatever we chose, not necessarily "West Hills") to it's list of acceptable city names for 11743.
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I could probably put Matzohpizza Perk, 11762 (I've seen people butcher it worse than that), and mail would still be delivered to my address. Does that mean I live in Matzohpizza perk?? or Better yet, does that
mean I live in the Village of Massapequa Park? Doesn't sound very valid to me.
You could put Matzohpizza Perk, but that city name would be wrong. I've also had mail with the wrong city name on it (and even the wrong zip) delivered. If you check with the post office, there's a list of acceptable and unacceptable "city names." West Hills is an unacceptable city name in 11743 according to the USPS. I'm sure Matzohpizza Perk is too.
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Bad realtor + uninformed 1st time buyer = it's def not out of the question.
You really think that would happen? That would have to be one amazingly dim homebuyer, real estate agent, and lawyer that closes a deal on a house thinking they were buying in an incorporated village, especially in the age of Google. You'd have to be incredibly bad at business or just plain high to believe this. It's an expensive area, and we generally attract a pretty smart highly educated bunch. How would you get through the process of verifying the homes COs and permits? Wouldn't you wonder what the Village taxes are? Where's the HV Police Department? Our incorporated villages come at a real premium further distinguishing them.
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As for Greenwich Village --Obviously not when they know they are governed under NY City jurisdiction. And there is no possible way "they" could incorporate either (however West Hills or the hamlet of Huntington can Incorporate).
So, the people of Greenwich Village are somehow smarter than the people of Huntington Village? How does that happen? Greenwich Villagers (and their guests) instinctively "know they are governed under NYC jurisdiction," while the Huntington Villagers are too stupid to understand they are governed by the Town of Huntington and Suffolk County? Sorry that makes no sense. There are stupid people everywhere. Does Prof. Walter spam the city boards with a geography and civics lesson every time someone asks where Washington Square Park is? Does he insist Greenwich Village doesn't exist when locals provide the correct and accurate answer?
You sort of missed my point. Greenwich Village is the unofficial name of a place with unofficial boundaries, as is HV. According to the Walter
Greenspan model of proper language usage, it shouldn't be allowed to be called that because a "village" can't exist within the boundaries of NYC - unless of course you look at the historical context of where Greenwich Village derived its name. HV is the same. Like GV, Huntington Village isn't a "slang" term that sprung up recently. It's been called that for over two centuries.
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Most people (including myself) on LI still refer to places by their ZIP or their "customary" name. But the difference now is I know that I'm technically wrong when I do this.
Well, in my learned opinion, I don't think you're technically "wrong." Your zip code designated "town/city" is just as valid a community as your CDP. Which community do find has more practical application in your life? Can you provide any examples of how a CDP trumps anything? Any evidence of how it is actually where you live? We use our postal designations for a very good reason...they define where are homes are! They give us an address. There's a reason why we speak about where we "live" this way.
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Last edited by Keeper; 11-26-2010 at 02:41 PM..
Reason: fixed
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I'm sorry that you find Huntington so confusing. It seems obvious that you are not a resident, which is probably why. Nobody here is confused, and people move to our town all the time and are able to pick up on how things work. It's really not that complicated.
I don't believe anyone was at any point confused about Huntington Village being an incorporated village. It's the historic name of a place that dates back about 200 years (prior to that it was known as the "Town Spot"). It is a very real place.
Sorry, this argument is flawed. The hamlets of West Hills and Huntington are adjacent and share a zip code and the name "Huntington." My address says I live in Huntington. Please explain to me how my address (which is used by GIS systems) is less valid than the census designation. The address at least has a real world application. There is no governing body for either.
You'd have to be incredibly dense to think this. Anyone looking in the area is going to pick up on what "village" means. Do you really think someone is going to spend at least 500k on a home and then be surprised that it doesn't have a village police department or mayor? We attract some pretty sophisticated and well educated residents. Do you think people that move to Greenwich Village think they are in a municipal village?
Yes, thank you. I still don't see anyone arguing that a "Village of Huntington" exists. That doesn't mean that an area called Huntington Village can't exist. Is this really that confusing? Huntington Village, CSH Village, and Northport Village are all surrounded by several incorporated villages. We locals know the difference. Do you worry that people who live in Cold Spring Harbor are confused and think they live in a body of water? Worried that some poor schlep is going to think he needs a houseboat? Words can have multiple meanings.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. Nobody has been arguing that Huntington Village is a municipal village. I don't know anyone that thinks this.
How exactly? Manhattan and Brooklyn neighborhoods don't technically exist geographically paper, the same way Huntington Village doesn't technically "exist." That doesn't mean someone can't say they live in Chelsea and interchangeably Manhattan. Similarity, one can say they live in Huntington, and interchangeably, anywhere in the township. (Township is a completely acceptable word to use. Sorry Walter.)
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now this post is a breath of fresh air ...
I grew up in Huntington and lived there for 25 years, I loved it in Huntington and frequently called the "downtown area" Huntington Village.
I never knew that it wasn't actually a "Village"
I found out later and found it quite interesting to be honest.
Like I said, Walter's posts can be very interesting trivia to longtime residents (in appropriate and relevant threads). Depending on the context, they can also be incredibly confusing to out-of-towners. Are you a homeowner? I ask, because I find it very hard to believe a homeowner doesn't have a basic understanding of local government. This might change as you get older.
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Huntington downtown area is not a real Village
the local residents call it a village as do I
but it isn't a village.
You might want to reread my post, as I never claimed it was a municipal village. That was clearly stated several times.
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I can call a dog a cat but it's still a dog...
Well, actually you can name a dog "Cat." The same way you can name an area "Huntington Village."
Like I said, Walter's posts can be very interesting trivia to longtime residents. Depending on the context, they can also be incredibly confusing to out-of-towners. Are you a homeowner? I ask, because I find it very hard to believe a homeowner doesn't have a basic understanding of local government. This might change as you get older. "
actually I am a homeowner, in a real incorporated village.
I also grew up in a real incorporated village,
the village of Huntington Bay.
Nothing has changed, Huntington town is still not a village, no matter what you call it. and that is the point of the OP whether you stated it was a municipal village or not. you are arguing the point that we can still call it a village because the name of the downtown area is "Huntington Village"
yes...you can call it whatever you want to as do I
Walter is just stating the facts.
Huntington Village is not a village.
that said
call it what you want.
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Originally Posted by h-tonian
You might want to reread my post, as I never claimed it was a municipal village. That was clearly stated several times."
I never said that you claimed it to be a municipal village, I merely stated that it wasn't.... I read your posts carefully, perhaps you should spend more time reading mine.
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Originally Posted by h-tonian
Well, actually you can name a dog "Cat." The same way you can name an area "Huntington Village."
yes you could name a dog "cat" then when some guy on a forum say's that the dog is a "dog" named "cat" but is actually a "dog" you can call him a troll write a five hundred word essay on a public forum about how it's actually ok to call a dog "cat" and that guy should keep his unwarranted fact checking to himself because in your fragile little bubble of a world you are correct and hearing the actual fact of the matter makes you feel insecure and unhappy.
whatever you say.
I was as much a Huntington resident as you
I had as much pride in my town...er...hamlet as you.
Walter is well informed and nothing more.
Last edited by minesbroken; 11-25-2010 at 10:26 PM..
The town of huntington itself calls ny avenue and main street a village.
Well, the Town is either woefully ignorant (like its residents), or this proves that Frank Patron is feeding the public false geographic information to keep out taxes high!
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Originally Posted by twingles
SO you say that no one could possibly be confused, but my DH isn't really all that dumb, and while he wasn't confused, he didn't really "get" the reference, especially coming from what his frame of reference of what a "village" is. (Of course in GC when you say you are going to the village you say you are "going to 7th St" - not sure if that's less confusing to non-locals!).
Thanks. I enjoy your posts too. You clearly know what your talking about where our hometown is concerned.
I travel a lot and occasionally encounter confusion over local/regional language, especially where homonyms are concerned. They're usually cleared up in a sentence or two and are followed by a good laugh. I imagine it was the same with your DH. I'm not saying there can't be confusion...it's how blown out of proportion some people are making this confusion out to be that I take issue with. I think they actually create more confusion because of it. Your 7th St analogy is spot-on.
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Originally Posted by Pequaman
They should probably teach this stuff in high school -- But that would border on "politics" or "Understanding how Government works" etc.. similar to understanding balance sheets which isn't taught either. But kids learn how to glue stuff together and other crap like that. [/url]
Well, without repeating what I said above...I couldn't agree more. Both civics and local geography are taught at the grade and high school levels though. B
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Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean
I didn't catch the original thread where this topic came up, so I dunno what the exact background is here.....but I do agree that Walter sometimes gets carried away with the maps, or inserts them into conversations where they certainly do not belong. As you mentioned, I can't imagine how confusing this must be for people who are completely unfamiliar with the area and inquiring about topics that have no relevance to geography whatsoever.
Once again Sean gets the Smartest Poster Award.
I've said most of what I want to say (for now), but I'll add - I agree Walter's info has plenty of value in the right context. If a thread is started asking "Where do I go to get a permit for a new deck in the Village of Huntington," his maps and literature would be perfectly valid. But, when someone asks about day care in Huntington Village, and they are told HV doesn't exist and given a map of hamlet borders...Not productive. He also seems to not fully grasp the info he's presenting (and can be very arrogant about it). Your explanation of what our hamlets really are and the multiple layers of governance and services that lay on top show you "get" this.
Really, this discussion shouldn't be about Walter - it should be about how important it is to use information properly and to look at the whole picture when providing community information and profiles. Governance, culture, vernacular, history, geography, etc...all things should be considered,
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(Side note for any other nerds out there: Yale University Press is releasing a series of books that try to define neighborhood names and boundaries in NYC. They include tons of original research, incredibly detailed maps and both current and historic photos. So far they've released ones for Brooklyn, and Queens, which most libraries & bookstores carry. I've got both and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the next three!!)
I own the Brooklyn one. I'm a big nerd too!
PS: West Hills at one time did have a post office, in fact it was one of the first P.O.'s in Suffolk County.....though it hasn't existed for at least a hundred years if not much longer. There is an old historic marker on it's former site, an empty lot on Oakwood Road near it's intersection with Jericho Turnpike.[/quote]
Yup. West Hills has some amazing history. I really recommend reading more about it (since I don't want to derail another thread).
I'm aware of the post office. Of course, back then you could just write something like:
You're greatly underestimating the intelligence of people from Huntington and Long Islanders in general. I grew up in Huntington Bay, which is an incorporated village, and we still say Huntington Village (we say Northport Village too). People get the difference between a municipality and the term village as a way to describe a downtown area. It's really not that confusing.
I agree it just like Smithtown. Residents from as far as Commack to St. James to Hauppauge will say they are from Smithtown. These residents understand where they actually live.
Another great example of this confusion is the Great Neck area. Why are there so many villages on that little peninsula? Can you answer that Walter? What is thought of as the village=downtown(by the train station) is actually Great Neck Plaza.
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Another great example of this confusion is the Great Neck area. Why are there so many villages on that little peninsula? Can you answer that Walter?
I seem to recall that I once knew the answer to that question, but that answer does not come quickly to mind at the moment.
But, I believe that what occurred on the Great Neck peninsula, with it's 9 villages, and overall in the Town of North Hempstead, with its 30 villages, making it the only one of the 13 towns on Long Island with the majority of the area/population within villages and thus, to some degree, outside of the Town of North Hempstead's control, may have been the reason that led to the Town of Scarsdale becoming a coterminous town-village to prevent such a thing from occurring within its town.
A coterminous town-village is where the town and the village have the same name and have the same exact border and the town supervisor/town board and the village mayor/board of trustees are the same.
Three of the 5 coterminous town-villages are in Westchester County (Harrison, Mount Kisco and Scarsdale), one is in Albany County (Green Island) and one is in Monroe County (East Rochester).
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